JPH Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Hello: Gee...I almost really hate to add to this as I sell all that I can make (and usually a lot more as I am constantly back ordered..)..but I am in a "niche market" as there are very few decent swordsmiths out there that can make a "real sword" and not some wall hanger monstrosity. Ok I do pretty well, not exactly rich but I do make a more than comfortable living at this, but then again I have been doing this for close to 40 years now so....and I turn away more work than I accept. All I can say is if you make a QUALITY product, price it fairly you should do pretty well. My Papuli had a saying "Do not price your milk so high that it sours in the can"... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysmith Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Some of you all know I use to own a retail knife store and still have a bad habit of hanging out with custom knife and sword makers and collectors at various shows across the country. I've had the immense pleasure to handle some of Salamander Armoury's (Jim's) knives and swords, as well as some from a few of the other top sword makers in the US. You can immediately tell Dr. Hrisoulas produces an excellent quality product (accurate balance and weight) for the price...in fact, I've never figured out how he can price them that low. Jim's combination of creating excellent value (fair price for the quality), and marketing to an under utilized niche market seems to be the secret to creating a product-line that will allow you to make knives a full-time business. Create a product line based on materials within your skill level. Work on creating a knife that even if it has popular (traditional or modern) design elements, still is different enough to be uniquely yours. Even though Jim is creating swords and knives based on historical examples, I can pick his out of a group of other custom historically based swords. His swords are completely different than say one of Tinker's, or Gus Trim's, or Bruce Evans. All have figured out a way to make their swords unique, even if they are using the same historical example. Same with hunters, or tactical, or even kitchen knives. A good (and smart) maker will realize that a collector (or user) is looking for something different within their collection parameters. Go to a knife show (or check the internet). You'll find completely different interpretations of a hunter (even using the exact same material). Of course you have to be aware of the cost of your supplies and labor. Figuring ways to keep those fixed and variable costs down is the key to keeping your prices fair (to both you and your customer). Consider education as an investment...whether it be experimenting with new and expensive materials, or classes. It is one kind of expense that will pay for itself over and over by helping you create value in your product. Just be smart and experiment in small steps. Jumping too far ahead of your skill level is a formula for an expensive disaster and frustration. Same with tools. Not only do you have to consider the price of the grinder, welder, etc., but there is a learning curve to using any new machine. Think hard about how much of a learning curve will be needed considering your skill level and the amount of time necessary to make that machine start paying for itself. If your skill level hasn't progressed to the point of getting everything possible out of a band saw, it isn't time to progress to a CNC machine. You need to figure out WHO you want to market to. Marketing to your neighbors and friends is a great way to sell knives and work on your skill, however few of us have THAT many friends to allow for full-time knifemaking. The skills gained in marketing to your friends are the same skills that you'd use in selling at a knife show or ren-faire....just think of all of the potential customers as friends you just haven't yet met. Without a doubt the most successful knifemakers are also the friendliest! Also learn to niche market, within a niche market. Custom knives are a small enough niche market (as far as a customer base) as it is. There are more and more makers entering this market every year. You are going to have to get your name out there if you want to be able to grab a large enough share of that market to go full time. As I discussed above, value is imperative. However, value isn't enough if you are trying to break into a market with literally hundreds of other makers vying for the same customer. You need to do more than design a knife that is uniquely you....You also need to figure out who within that market isn't being served, and address their needs/wants. Jim does an excellent job of marketing to a subgroup of collectors...those that collect historically accurate usable swords. (hint: I know there are more and more women entering the market as collectors whose unique needs and tastes are being ignored.) Websites and forums are also a great way to get started. The exchange of information is amazing! Beyond the educational aspect, a by-product of that exchange, people become interested in you and your product. Remember, all things being equal, people buy from those they like. Ads and blurbs in the major magazines also can be helpful. (Again, you have to evaluate the cost compared to your skill level and market before considering magazine ads.) Full-time knifemaking is a long hard, but possible, road. Having a supportive spouse whose job will handle the bills and things like insurance makes that road far easier. The longer you work at all aspects of it (quality, value, and marketing), the easier it becomes. It is possible!! Ok enough (and probably too much). If you got this far, you have at least a start on the tenacity it takes to make it in full-time knifemaking. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnsrgn Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Its interesting to me, that for some reason when people undertake a new profession, whether it be knives, blacksmithing, or whatever the newbies seem to think they can start out getting the high dollar for their goods that the old established people in the field get for their wares after many years building up thier business's to a paying situation. As I operated an independent business and was self employed I know it takes a long time and a good many years to build up a good reputation to the point that customers trust you and rely on you to take care of their needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 In my field of woodworking, turning to be exact I have spent the last about seven years becoming established to the point that I can expect top dollar for my work. In smithing I am a new face and don't plan on getting top dollar for some time to come. Though I am lucky that I do have carry over from one craft to the other in my customer base. It all takes time. It also takes many a meal of Raman or red beans and rice to get to a certain level. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyboy Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Pam, you know what you are speaking of. but i'm sure you left something unsaid.???? don't know what it is you did'nt say?? buzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysmith Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Buzz, I left plenty unsaid....but some things are better learned by doing. Knife making is a tough road, but possible road. It takes time, effort, and a lot of sacrifice to build up a reputation of a product worth the price, and a list of clients to make it a full-time venture. That long, hard road begins with a first step.... Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 24, 2007 Author Share Posted June 24, 2007 REd beans and rice are not that bad,,neither are refried beans and tortillas,,,This thread has been very interesting. And it has gotten response from some very knowledgeable folks. I know I have personally gained from it. I also think that more than a few of you have figured out that you certainly do have to have some skills to craft anything not only knives. In addition to that you have to have an in-house quality control plan. For whatever it is that you craft you have to know how to price it and you also have to know what to sell. What can you produce that will make a few bucks and you can repeat? The quality control I use is really simple; I have decided that what works best for me is; what is the worst thing I will let out of my shop. Can I let a knife go out with a scratch in the blade? how big of a scratch? how many scratches? Can I let one leave with flaws in the handle or fittings? I think if you get it settled what you are willing to accept as your shop policy you will be well on your way to finding your place in the market. I think it was mentioned about that many folks use the same or similiar materials. It was also mentioned that you must develop a "name" How do you do that? What defines your work? This all does not apply only to knives but it applies to all trades or crafts. Most of us know that Irnsrgn ran a successful welding and repair shop. In a rural setting would he have lasted if he had a history of failed repairs or welds. Nope! I believe was it was self disciplined. To me that means that early on he decided what would be the worst example of what the was doing that he would let leave his place. His "name" came from that. Folks came back trusting they would get it done right. I use him as an example to show that when we work for ourselves or others we should not only work within our limits and abilites but we should also work to our standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plain ol Bill Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Tips for new makers starting out. Make blades and test to destruction. Keep a log of results. Each time you change steels, even batches of the same type steel, make a blade, heat treat it and test to destruction. Change up your heat treat till you get optimum results. Steel, & wood are the body of a knife but the heat treatment is the soul of one. Test each blade before it leaves your shop to make sure it can pass the brass rod test. Never let a blade leave your show without it being really, really sharp. Be very confident in the blades ability to perform to the maximum. Work hard on your fit and finish. Fit and finish will sell a knife faster than anything else I can think of. Use your knives - how does it fit in the hand? Is it comfortable to use for long periods? Does the edge stay keen, and if not why? Does it come w/ a sheath - a fixed blade without a sheath is useless. Use top grade materials. Learn from everyone - go to shows & pick up knives and really look them over, talk w/ the maker. Don't expect your knives to bring anywhere near the price that someone who has been making and selling for quite awhile gets. Make and give knives to friends, relatives, neighbors and ask them for feedback on how they perform and what could be changed to make them better or more comfortable to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_hl Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I have relied on my work as a blacksmith as my sole source of income for a while now. I think for me learning how to be a businessman is more difficult than learning how to pattern weld. Its tough, but I'm still hanging in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Dennis: You are correct, it is very difficult to run a small business (and you can;t get any smaller than mine cause I am IT!) and there are literally 100's and 100's of very talented smiths that failed, not from a lack of talent or ability to make things but from not being able to manage the day to day "stuff" of running a business. The "every day" stuff like getting supllies..paying the bills..fixing what breaks and all..managing accounts, getting work in and most inportantly getting work out the door can be overwhelming for most folks and you need to have the right "stuff" to be able to be self employed and a lot of folks simply do not have the motovation to work for themselves and the next thing they know they are in over their heads and in trouble. Yeah, it can be a real PITA at times..in fact it usually is but I am doing what I love and I don't really "work", I have fun...so maybe that's the difference. Attitude is important and you can do quite well if you are motovated and creative in how you deal with the every day in day out things that need to be delt with... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agsolder Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Plain ol' Bill-- I would be grateful if you would describe what is involved when you "make sure it can pass the brass rod test" before a knife leaves your shop. Try to sever it? How thick a rod? Annealed or work-hardened as from the store? With a hammer? Many thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyboy Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 thinking of picking up a couple of pieces of equipment from harbor freight. going to try and build my own 2in. belt sander/grinder from a buffer machine motor and while i'm at it snag a 1in. sander for $35. $100 total. not a big expense considering a good fixed blade tactical knife would cost about $75- $100. well, after looking over the Harbor Freight 1in. sander, ( not enough power) i decided to leave it, as for the buffer, came home without it it also but for a different reason. need to do some more homework to find the right parts like a 5"X2" caster drive wheel, and draw out some plans for fabrication or image of said grinder. always something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmercier Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 the brass rod test is a test where you take a brass rod and roll the edge of your blade over it to show the edge can flex properly while still being sharp without cracking. It's a test of the temper of the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plain ol Bill Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 The brass rod test is this: Finish the blade down to a thin edge. Lay a brass rod (I use a piece of 1/8" brazing rod) down on a hard surface. Lay the blade side down with the edge of the blade on the rod and press down hard to the point you can see the edge deform. Maintaining the pressure on the edge roll the length of the edge down the rod. The edge should deform and spring back into place as you move on. If the edge cracks or chips the blade needs a higher temp for tempering. If the edge doesn't come back into place then your heat during tempering is too high. You need good light close to the edge so you can see it deform and be sure to wear safety glasses. Using this test just helps ensure your tempering heat is spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agsolder Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 jmercier, plain ol' Bill-- Many thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Here is my nickels worth. A customer must be able to depend on you (as has been said in previous posts). This customer may be a $ 20.- show customer or a several thousand dollar customer. Your name is just that ; your reputation rests on it. Guess I should really read more because I have just found this thread today. Good reading and thanks for the posts. The ones that are honest and hustle get the work regularly and keep getting the work regularly. Quitters never win and winners never quit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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