Makin knives and or money?

[Rich Hale]

Lately there seems to be a lot of new folks on here that make or want to make knives. May be a good idea to think about what it takes to make money on a knife. How much does it really cost you for materials and disposables to make a knife and or sheath and get it ready to sell and does it cost you to sell it? Steel runs from free to a couple of bucks and inch. Or is there free steel?

If you have an old coil spring or leaf that someone gave you and brought to your shop that is free. If you had to go get it by gas vehicle then there is an expense. If you run out of true free steel then you have to figure how to go get more. If you forge how much does it cost for fuel? What do you use for fittings and how much does that cost? How about handle material? How about a sheath? Ok that gives you some idea of what this is about.

I use some pricey stuff so lets look at a knife and costs. Blade steel for a medium hunter about $10, heat treat Another $10 ,guards and pins $20, handle material starts at about $25, Abrasives and buffing costs, another $5, So a rough cost is about $75 or is it. How about drill bits, band saw blades costs of getting the materials to my shop? Then think of how do you sell and what does that cost? Now, how about some money for you..what do you charge for your work? If you can do a knife in two hours, what would you want for the knife that cost $75 for materials? (and we have not mentioned time and materials for a sheath)! Also remember you can get about $7.50 an hour for flipping burgers.

And one more item to think on; If you sell $50 knives even if the materials are free or real cheap, how do you raise prices? And when you run out of free or cheap materials will you get more for the same knife,,,,? Can you the charge more as it cost you more?

I posted this to stir some thought and create some discussion and it really applies to anything we make in our shops. And no I did not discuss utility bills, cost of space to work in, insurance or a lot of incidental items we take for granted but pay to replace or maintain. Enjoy

[julian]

all very good things to consider Rich. Making a living as a bladesmith/blademaker ain't easy!

[Mike Turner]

Rich this is a question I have been asking myself lately as I am getting my knives to where I think they are sellable. You have made a lot of important considerations to make in pricing a knife for sale. I know I for one would like to talk more on the subject.

[irnsrgn]

I think one thing Rich forgot is the quality of the knife (product) reflects on how much it will sell for, a person may have $75 in the cost of making a knife, but most people do not care what it is made out of, all they are interested in is what it looks like. A crude knife that costs $100 to make but looks as if it were made by a cave man with no tools, you may not be able to give away let alone sell it.

[ThomasPowers]

The "profit" in making knives is having an established name that gets you "free money" cause of it. You don't start out with such a name it; it generally takes years and thousands of dollars spent selling at knife shows to gradually develope one.

BTW don't forget the cost of the shop: building, utilities, taxes, etc. Your "overhead costs" medical insurance; pension plan, time, SAFETY EQUIPMENT

Remember your income will have to cover downtime---had a friend grind through a tendon in a shop accident---do you have enough money in the bank to sit around for a couple of months doing *nothing* and covering heavy medical bills?

Generally I advise people to work a day job and do knifemaking "out of hours" and not to think of switching until their knifemaking is bringing in about as much money as their day job is. Working *two* jobs is good practice for supporting yourself by your craft.

[mark stephen]

The cost of forging a knife,say from a coil spring or a good file should be dirt cheap.The only thing you would pay for would be the handle material if you dont have any on hand, pin stock,epoxy,and your fuel.The sheath and leather stitching tools or kydex are not bad either.Mostly it comes down to the cost of your labor.Things can get pricey if you move up to making a lot of pattern welded steel.A press or power hammer,the main investment,how good of a belt grinder can you afford ,salt pots high and low temp,ect.,ect.

[ThomasPowers]

Mark; you don't plan to retire? You don't have any health insurance? *costs* include overhead. if you do not cover your overhead you are just cheating your self. The materials to make an item are often the cheapest part of the entire thing!

This is where the hobby craftsperson usually goes into the red when they decide to go pro; they have never calculated their *true* cost of making things and base their financial plans on a much less loaded figure.

(I won't even mention opprotunity costs...)

Thomas

[rstegman]

Another thing to consider. A beginner might take all day to do something that a master does in half an hour. Pricing when started, based on hours, is difficult because of the speed a master can apply for the same quality job.

In my wood working, my sales essentually pays for tools and some supplies. Anything more is pure luck.

[mark stephen]

Thanks for the advice but im already making a living at it.

[Rich Hale]

My post seems to have been taken in the manner I had in mind. Many of you seemed to have already spent some time considering costs vs profits and a couple have put a lot of effort into this.
rstegman makes a good point about skill level. I does take a lot of time to train you mind and body to funciton as a team and thea of course leads to another point to be made. You can take a lot of time off of the learning curve by attending classes, clinics, shop visits, books, videos etc. Just remember that those are part of the overhead in a knife shop. Just as Thomas mentioned the cost of the overhead you can touch and those that you cannot. They are still costs. And as you put aside money from each knife towards materials you should budget for further education and those unforeseeable items such as machine failure, up grades to shop. And yes those times that due to health or injury issues we have to lay off for a while. Lets keep this thing active a while and see what other items or issues pop up. Thanks.

[rthibeau]

Another perspective on this matter can be gained by reverse engineering the accounting, as it were. Total up all the money you spent for anything and everything in the past year....for the household, the shop, recreation, vehicles, everything. This will be the minimum revenue stream you have to create and maintain annually. Divide that figure by the selling price of your wares and you will have how many you have to make and SELL in a year to survive. $35,000 divided by $100 = 350 things to make and sell, almost one a day every day. Or sell 100 things at $350 during the year, but how many can actually do that??

[monkeyboy]

yes, if anybody thinks of getting reach making knives. lol
money is everything, art is for part time fun, hobbies are just hobbies.
my father told me this years ago in so many words.
my father was a very well educated educator/business man. he worked hard all his life, as a musician in high school dance bands and later as a music educator/teacher of high school students. he never earned enough for his talents and dedication.
personally i worked too xxxxxx hard thru the 1980's and 90's, and my social life did'nt exist. sure i had more money than i could spend. but i was always tired burned out on the week ends and had no passion left for anything. even spending the money i earned.
not so now. i enjoy the work in the shop. nothing " has to get done NOW "
if i run into a snag on a project i move to something else and don't return to the problem till i'm ready. what a relief. in the old days it was gotta get it done NOW. no fun that way.
as for the money. frankly i don't give a xxxx. i've talked with Ed Fowler, a real time knife maker ( me, i make knives for my own entertainment ) over the phone about knife making and his knives in particular. you might say "A KNIFE MAKERS PHILOSOPHY " the short version, he asks around $900 - $1,700 for his wares. seems fair enough to me. take a look at what he does to render a knife from start to finish. also i think he tries to live off his knife making income. if i ever get $50 for a knife i'm gonna splurge on a gallon of ben&jerry's.
you can hardly make a knife for next to nothing, but you can bet there are some very nice blades being made for cheap by guys who love to make knives
and i am one of them guys.
man i hope i never have to make a living making knives. i'm no JIMI HENDRIX knife maker.
buzz

[ThomasPowers]

I spent a year apprenticed to one of the top US swordmakers in the early 1980's. He did "investment grade work" but was ahead of the market; with a 2 year backlog on orders and pretty much selling no sword under US$1000 (and those were early 1980's dollars) he still qualified for food stamps at times.

After my year I got married and had a family and chickened out and took a day job to support my family and pay for my hobby---it's a lot more fun as a hobby than as a job!

[rthibeau]

My point was to point out a method which could be used to make an educated guess on the viability of making a living at blacksmithing if someone was contemplating such an undertaking. The item to be sold could be anything, I didn't mention any particular thing to sell. The method could be used by farriers....how many shoes to put on to make the anticipated revenue....but usually everyone has several items whether it be different services or different products. A $5 fancy hook is a fine example, you'd need to sell 7,000 annually if that was the only thing to make, but add a $35 flower and you could sell 100 of those in place of 700 of those hooks, etc.

It wasn't meant to apply to hobbiests or others not needing to "make a living" at it.

[monkeyboy]

i dig. too much math for me. lol
i see what you want. i will let the experts have this one.
buzz

[oakwoodforge]

If I won the Lottery I'd keep making knives till its all gone


Jens

[son_of_bluegrass]

What are you basing those prices on? Ordering from a knife supply store like Jantz, I can get enough plain carbon steel for 3 or 4 knives for under $10 plus shipping, a plain pair of slabs for handle material is $5-10, guard and pin material for maybe $10 and by ordering enough the shipping is just a small addition to each part of the knife so for these parts, I figure $15-20. Of course there are other costs to consider; drill bits, sanding media, buffing compounds, electricity, wear on tools, adding the cost of a sheath (leather, stitching), etc. Based on this I guess it cost me $50 in materials and overhead to make a knife. Since this isn't my principle source of income, anything over that is profit, not that I sell many knives (or have even tried for that matter). Of cource if I calculate the profit per hour work on what I've sold, I make around $3-4 per hour.

ron

[Rich Hale]

The prices I put in the post were not the point of the post. Point being that IF you wish to make a hobby or full time job of your choice pay its way you would be well off to know what it costs you to do what it is you like to do.
If you use free steel or other supplies it may be a good idea to know if it is really free. And I believe you should figure what cost of replacing it is or will be when the time comes and you have depleted your supplies. For example if you can drive ten miles and get a small load of free supplies now and when it runs out repeat the trip but fuels for you mode of transport has gone up 10%. Have you considered that a price increase of your product is in order or will you eat the loss and take less for your work?. I like the comments added to this more please.

[Tyler Murch]

Making knives and or money? Knives and a little money.

[son_of_bluegrass]

I agree if you want to make money at this you need to approach it as a business first. Which of course means keeping track of what it cost you to make the knife and accurately track the time you put into each one. And the cost of making a knife should be re-evaluated on a regular basis so you don't wind up loosing money in a couple of years because you haven't kept track of rising prices. I think the reason for the adage "the way to make a small fortune blacksmithing (bladesmithing) is to start with a large fortune" is that so many try without treating their hobby as a business.

ron

[monkeyboy]

"the way to make a small fortune blacksmithing (bladesmithing) is to start with a large fortune"
LOL. true for any endeavor into the unknown.
i am thinking of picking up a couple of pieces of equipment from harbor freight.
going to try and build my own 2in. belt sander/grinder from a buffer machine motor and while i'm at it snag a 1in. sander for $35. $100 total. not a big expense considering a good fixed blade tactical knife would cost about $75- $100. soooooo......................
if i factored in all the knives i might make because i have these cool power tools,
i could say these (to be built) knives will eventually help pay down this new stuff.
this sound good????:confused:
buzz
to help pay down some frustration, i built three oak mallets today. WHACK-BAM-BOOM
BOOM.
one thing i am sure of, is, simply working in the shop doing anything what-so-ever is payment enough.

[Rich Hale]

I totally agree with workin in the shop being worth a lot. MAke sure you build a belt grinder that you can change speeds on Tredmills have a 1 or maybe 1 1/2 horse variable speed motor. Or you can use some step pulleys. 72 inch belts gives you a lot of options when you buy belts as far as quality and price.

[plain ol Bill]

I know a lot of makers with quite a few master smiths in the group. I can only think of about 5 full time makers that actually make a decent living at making blades and most of them have a factory alliance. Most full time makers have a wife that has a good job and helps suport a habit. Experience means a LOT in time taken to do specific tasks on knives and like Rich said time spent w/ other makers and going to hammer-ins and classes is invaluable to a knife making education. Every one has something to teach other makers. Even master smiths can learn from guys that are just starting out. Blades can be made with the simplest tools - fire, hammer, file sandpaper etc. Machinery just makes it faster, easier, better, and a lot more fun. I make a lot of knives, even manage to sell what I make. Do I make money at it - yes - but darn sure not enough that if I had to depend on it I could make it. Making knives is fun and when it is not fun anymore i won't make them. Likes and dislikes about knife making - Love the feel of a sharp blade sliding thru a piece of paper when putting the finala edge on. Hate spending hours hand sanding to get all the little scratches out. Love the pop when a knife seats into a well formed pocket in a sheath you just finished. Hate making a sheath when it doesn't turn out like the vision in my head thought it would.
Bill's Blades Home

[agsolder]

If you are going to make knives, it's pretty much like anything else in life, you are going to do it, no matter what. Sad fact is, however, there are lebenty kajillion bladesmiths out there and ... you seen one, you've pretty much seen them all. The workmanship is breathtakingly perfect, the blades cut like Excalibur. Soooo, if you are going to get your name in lights you better have an angle. Your blades are combat tested like Jay Fisher's. They are absolutely, totally perfecto like Bob Terzuola's. Etc, only better. Lotsa luck.

[Sam Salvati]

It's pretty sad, i know alot of pro full timers that are being forced to take part time jobs, due to the cruddy economy.