Joel OF Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hi folks, I have an urgent dilema centred around buying a decent pre-fab or building a workshop myself. It's an urgent dilema because the company that makes the pre-fabs have a 15% sale on till the end of February and only a few dates open at the end of the month to install, so I need to make my mind up quickly as to whether I'm going to do it DIY or go pre-fab. The pre-fab is actually a mobile stable, (no floor, doesn't require foundations as it's on "skids" and goes straight onto flat ground), it is 24ft x 12ft with 2 sets of stable doors. It's this without the 4ft overhang at the front: http://www.charttimberbuildings.co.uk/page/equestrian/mobile-stables/mobile-stables-value The stable and carpenters arrive in the morning and by lunch time the stable is built. It costs £2233 which includes delivery and installation. Hassle free, 25 year guarentee, horses not included. Although 24ft is huge for me I am concerned that 12ft isn't very wide. If I built a shop, (albeit a very humble one, also with no floor), I'd make it 16ft x 20ft and I could do it for less than half the cost of the stable. Saving over £1000 really appeals to me, however I'm no carpenter and it'll take me a good couple weeks to build a shop and any time spent building is time not spent practicing blacksmithing. As soon as the company re-opens on Monday morning I'm going to ring to see if the dimensions could be 16ft x 20ft, however I know they the mobile stables are 12ft as standard because any wider and they'd buckle if moved, though I'd never want to move it. If the 16ft x 20ft stable isn't an option, do you think 12ft x 24ft is ok? I am a novice and only making small things at the minute but every thread I read in this forum has the advice "get as big as you can afford". Whilst I can afford the stable and a 24ft shop would see me long into the future, I don't want it to discover in a few weeks that 12ft is too shallow. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as my head's in a bit of a spin with this. Sorry that was so long winded! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I've done a whole lot of work in a 12x29 shop for ten years or so because I had to. Its very cramped, once your tools are in, you have to go outside to change your mind. although it can be done, Its more work but I would get some friends and have a "barn raisin' " . Keep in mind, nothing makes people forget your name faster than needing help " barn raisin' " I hired a framer by the day and I'll tell you what, its worth every penny having a pro run the job. Go with the 16' wide....at least, and good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug}{maN Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I looked in to them but ours here have floor in then. Looks like yours come without floors . So ya it would work. The size is good. I work in a 12x18! Its not all that bad. Just plan long and hard on where things will go before you mount anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlbaker Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 If it was me I would go as wide as possible at all costs,even if it meant eating only beans and rice for the next decade.Once you install your equipment ,welding table(s) and then start manipulating long bars of metal you will kick yourself if your shop is too narrow, it can feel as if you are in a constant fistfighjt with your jobs. My old shop consisted of two 20x25 units each with its own rollupdoor and a connecting interior man door between them. It was so crowded that quite often to work on part of a job that was only threeft away I would have to walk out one rollup enter the other rollup make my way through the interior mandoor into space #1 , work on the section and then immediately backtrack .A huge pain. Our new shop is 30x60 and it is still too small.It might seem as if I am belabouring the point, but go as big as you can possibly go, you won't regret it in my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlbaker Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Don't forget height too, visualize where your lights will be hanging and then you spinning bars end for end trying to dodge the fixtures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I got that same sales pressure when I bought my building. On reflection, the price has remained about the same for years after. With that and the need for a space designed for your use in mind, I would go for the owner built. As another post suggested, with some of the money you will save, hire someone to help you with framing. Design the shop based on a plan drawn of your tool layout how you like them then wrap the space with walls giving you enough room to maneuver around everything. I have 2500 sq. ft and could use another 1000... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck in Ms Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 If you are already concerned about the size of the pre fab, just let it go. You said you could build one like you like in two weeks for less money. So you can get one you don't like that will last 25 years or in two weeks you can have one that is perfect to you that can last 25 years. That being said, I built mine 12 X 16 (feet) and do every thing I want to in half of the shop while the other half has metal storage and the antique tools I use. I have a fab table just outside for larger projects, mainly squaring window grill's or garden gates. Keep in mind I use no electric tools so if you plan on that this would never work for you. Check out Mr Pugh's shop build on here and that will give you a good idea on how to use space. Good Luck either way you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 While the I want it now syndrom isnt rare, and I know its hard to beat, I also suggest build your own. Wether you actually build it yourself as I did (I work construction for a living, and I still had a real roofer and carpenter to frame) or you choose hire the job out (strongly suggested unless you are experianced), most people are not aware of the other things besides 2x4 and nails that are required, You make the plans for YOUR work space. How wide? If you thingk 12 is too narow, then for your needs it most likely is. Make plans on paper, remembering to leave at least 5ft clearance around all working sides of forge and anvil, then using easily movable flags on wires (15 to 30 cents cents each) mark it out where you want to build for referance of your layout in real space. get white flags to reusing when you actually build is good idea. Other colors on a job doite are for utilities, Aftger you are sure then you spray paint your outer parimiter, then place markes actualt size for forge anvil and other goodies, after a few days, you will most likelyl also see you need more room. so add it now and redo the flags, making your adjustments in flags, then paint, I only had to redo the flags 2x myself, and glad I did. Be warned that no matter how large, it will get filled and we will want more. thats the naturre of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Cheers for all the replies folks, i have always secretly leaned towards building something myself but your replies have helped me know it's the right option. I'm happy enough to have a earth floor but where i live a few inches down it's clay so the ground gets very wet, sticky & slippery, plus the shop site is on a slight slope so i need to even out & firm up the ground. I've been told about Geotextile & MOT type 2 aggregate which will help but are there any other products/methods i should be aware of that are simple enough for an idiot like me to make work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck in Ms Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I don't know what materials are available to you but an 1 1/2 inches of pea gravel spread over your floor works good. It is inexpensive and will tamp down real nice. After a while you may need to add an additional fifty pounds or so where you walk the most but that is about all the maintenance required. If you use it, resist the urge to put it too deep or thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Cheers, i'll check it out. I'll buy whatever materials are needed to do it right. With something like pea gravel is it as simple as digging out the higher end of the ground so it's level with lower then spreading the gravel out or is there more ground works envolved? I'll be tearing down my little smithy-shack to make way for the new proper smithy so it'll be in the same spot. Admitedly when i dug out a flat surface last time round it was raining which really didn't help, but the clay is a killer nonetheless. I'm wondering if hiring a digger is sensible, my back went through hell last time...and this will be bigger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hi Kurgan, I'm no building expert, and I'm sure you'll get more advice about laying the shingle, but I can say that the woodworker who rents the other end of the barn from me, he had no flooring- and with this recent rain we've had, his floor was completely sodden- we have clay underneath as well. Don't know if where you are is prone to standing water? Anyway, he was having his floor concreted, but the grounds person doing the work advised to dig out drainage channels first around the building, might be an idea? His shop isn't that big and didn't even take a whole day to dig it out and dig channels with a digger. I wouldn't fancy digging it out by hand!! He then put down a layer of hardcore before concreting. I would think also if you put down shingle then you'd need a membrane under it? Obviously I am just making suggestions and I could be way off (I'm no expert!) but I thought I'd mention it. Good luck with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Cheers Colleen, my Dad suggested something similar - digging trenches and laying some pipe in, drilling holes in the top of the pipe and running it off towards the ditch. Keep 'em coming folks :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Just remembered- our neighbour when we lived in Scotland put in new drainage round their house, what they did was same as what your Dad suggested, and then covered with "sharp" gravel. I remember a discussion about it being "sharp", as apparently it doesn't settle and "sink" as quickly as rounded gravel?? Again, I have no idea of this, but I know that there are similar qualities between building sand and "sharp" sand so it made sense to me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzer Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 In my case, building what I could afford was a matter of what I could build in a (to me) reasonable amount of time, paying as I go. This was balanced by the amount of available space in the location I wanted to place it. I had enough for the initial pole barn roof build, and as time and money allow, am getting the rest of it done. Building takes time and money, and if you are lacking in one, you need more of the other. :) I am not only saving substantially on labor, but taking my time in buying materials will also pay off. In between paydays, I am scrounging free or cheap stuff, keeping an eye out for people selling/giving away materials left over from their builds or otherwise no longer need. I have built several projects completely from free materials in the past. A couple weeks is a pretty short deadline for a project like this if you are short on cash. If your concern is to keep in practice, and already have a small smithy, you may consider keeping what you have while gathering materials to build bigger. My shop has a gravel floor, and I built up the ground when levelling and contoured it to avoid the standing water problem. Digging out the high end and using the fill for levelling the low end will create a standing water problem if the ground above it remains sloped towards the building. Bring in fill dirt to level the low end and build up the high end a couple inches. Shape the ground around it to direct the water away from the shop, and use french drains or irrigation pipe to redirect any water that remains a problem. There are other options, but this is the simplest and least expensive, and also more reliable over time. A wet shop floor will cause you no end of headaches and can even be a hazard to your health and safety in some conditions. The fill dirt I used is a mixture of clay and sand, and naturally packs down almost as hard as brick. I gave it a couple weeks after compacting it to allow for more settling before bringing in the final loads. But since I am building a pole barn I didn't need to go to as much trouble as I would if I were pouring a slab or building a standard framed building. The type of construction you do will have an impact on what fill material you can use, and the amount of compaction you have to do. Remember that the backfill is actually part of your foundation, and if it settles too much, it can damage the building placed over it. Masonry such as concrete or brick is especially susceptable to settling issues. In my case, the poles were set in undisturbed earth before the back fill was brought in so I avoided any structural issues if it settles over time. If you're looking at building a framed building, you can also look at a piered foundation if the site needs a lot of backfill. Your local building code will determine a lot of this too, if there is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck in Ms Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 You only mentioned a "slight slope" so let's work with that. Grizzer said what I started typing so try to bring in the fill dirt. As for the pea gravel just spread it out and either tamp it down or start working in there and you will compact it in time. It doesn't seem to keep settling much, I added a little more just once between the anvil and forge. As long as your floor is a little higher than the surrounding area its not going to get wet anymore. The dust is why I added the pea gravel in the first place. If it doesn't hold water now it will not do it when you add gravel and a roof. So my question to you would be can you work with that "slight slope" as is? I bet mine drops five inches from front to back but I never notice it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Pea Gravel will not tamp down! It is the shape of a pea! Meaning round'ish (think marbles). Decomposed Granite will work really well or whatever 1/4- with fines grade or rock is available in your area. Glad to hear your leaning toward self built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 Cheers Colleen. Chuck, I think if I had a 20ft long smithy and I didn't even out the ground then the ground height difference from front to back would be over a foot. Part of the problem is that the back of the new smithy would be on the site of the existing smithy whilst the front would be on new ground. To get the site for my existing smithy relatively even I had to dig down so I'll definitely have to do what Grizzer said: Digging out the high end and using the fill for levelling the low end will create a standing water problem if the ground above it remains sloped towards the building. Bring in fill dirt to level the low end and build up the high end a couple inches. Shape the ground around it to direct the water away from the shop, and use french drains or irrigation pipe to redirect any water that remains a problem. Grizzer do you have any pics of your pole construction? I want to build my shop frame mainly out of chestnut posts, there's a couple woodsmen up the road who coppice chestnut, I've bought from them before and they're always dirt cheap, and they deliver. I like supporting guys like them too as they're a dying breed, only problem is it makes my life harder because you're not dealing with flat 90 degree wood. Trust me, the beauty of using free, found or salvaged materials isn't lost on me, but this time round I'll only use the materials where appropriate rather than taking a "yeah that'll do attitude". I can salvage the chestnut posts and spiles, (half round posts with a spike on the end), from my existing build to use in the walls of the new smithy as well as the 12ft floor boards I was given by a builder, (who I am told has more to give me), but this time round I'll plan the build properly around the set dimensions of things like OSB board. I'll definitely hire a small digger this time round and more than likely I'll employ my cousin for a few days as he does a lot of ground works, as well as a mate who's a carpenter and use the fact that my uncle is the manager of a well known UK builders merchant. If I surround myself with people who know what they're doing then things can only run smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aessinus Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Shame it's a bit far,or I'd be up for a barn-raising. Could bring my wood-box. Y'all got nice mead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck in Ms Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yes Sir, that is why I mentioned Grizzer above that is the way to go. Chestnut, that is going to be a touch of class! I have never even seen a piece but have read a lot about it being used in years past. I can't wait to see some framing pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck in Ms Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yes Sir, that is why I mentioned Grizzer above that is the way to go. Chestnut, that is going to be a touch of class! I have never even seen a piece but have read a lot about it being used in years past. I can't wait to see some framing pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 I had a quick chat with my cousin that does a lot of groundworks today, I'm feeling more comfortable with going DIY knowing the field slope and saturated ground can be overcome without costing me an arm and a leg, however I'm unsure how far to extend the aggregate base beyond the shed and whether to slope the aggregate away at the 4 sides or build a retaining wall out of railway sleepers. Any ideas? I'm trawling the net for pictures of simple, round pole, single pitch shed frames that I can copy/adapt. My desire to support the local woodsman (and use their non-square timber) is really the tail wagging the dog, but it's an obstacle I feel is worth working around. If anyone can link me to any relevant pictures or sites I'd be massively grateful! Chuck, I know next to nothing about wood but chestnut very common in my area. Every local woodsman that makes posts, spiles, woven hurdles and fencing uses chestnut. I know it's a hardwood but I'd imagine it grows quite fast as it's never in short supply, it's a fraction of the cost of other hardwoods like oak too. However it's not a good anvil base as it cracks and another woodsman I was talking to suggested oak or ash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck in Ms Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I understand that the Chestnut population was killed off over here by blight. It was devastating to the entire east coast. However there are claims that structures over 100 years old still stand due to its natural resistance to rot and insects. This information is only from reading as I have no first hand experience with it. The retaining wall or slope will have to be a personal preference for you. I suppose if you are going to raise it a foot or more the retaining wall will be the only way to contain your material. ( Especially if you use marbles ). I took the natural approach and let the slope flow to the surrounding area. I will try to attach a photo here. This is on round poles, I just cut notches with a chain saw to set the beams on. The poles were tapered so I put the small end in the ground and cut the thick end. Cover the bottom end with pitch or tar to prevent wicking of water from damp soil. The trusses are homemade just 2 X 4s fastened together with truss plates. My eight year old son and I built this in about five or six days not counting the forge of course. That took a few weekends in itself. This is not good pictures but its all I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 Cheers Chuck. Lucky son, I wish I had hands on experience like that at an early age. All across Europe we're now having a disease wipe out Ash. My parents have a small woodland which supposedly has some 70 year old ash in, I don't know if they've escaped the disease though. Day by day this is becoming clearer in my head and less daunting...thankfully! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzer Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I am posting picks and general info of my build as it comes along in this thread: http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/30035-my-shop-build/ I have more pics on my hard drive, and can get more detailed ones for you if you need them. Pole barn construction is about the simplest way to go. I used prefab metal trusses, but wooden trusses are certainly an option. As I mentioned earlier, I am building slowly as I have extra money, so it's a slow build, but it's getting done. Round pole is certainly an feasable, or you can have your woodsmen square them up a bit with an adze to make sheathing it a bit easier. For a shop as small as the one you are considering, simple girting should be enough to frame the outside for sheathing. I am building a vertical frame to further support the girts on mine due to size, and the possibility of extreme wind loads when hurricanes move through the area. The gravel can either stop at the wall, or extend out a bit. It really depends on the ground conditions, appearance, and design of the building. I'd recommend to have it extend out a bit from any door openings. A foot is really about the most you would need to come out in either case. Chestnut sounds nice, I will enjoy seeing it when it's done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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