Need help with Nazel 3b hammer foundation

[Chris Pook]

My Nazel 3b has been sitting on big wood beams for the last 30 or more years. It came allready bolted to them when I bought it 3 years ago. When I was in my old rented warehouse, the vibrations didn't transmit through the ground at all (very solid sandy ground underneath the building). So when I moved it to the new shop I built at my house, I didn't think nothing of it. I just had the cement poured extra thick with extra rebar where the hammers was going to sit. Now when I run the hammer my wife can feel it in our living room 100' away from the shop. It wouldn't be an issue but a neighbours house is a bit closer than that. So I've been thoughtful and try and keep the use of the Nazel to a minumum and use the 100lb little giant when ever possible.

The big difference between my old warehouse and the new shop is that my area is sitting on top of a large aquafier, hitting water at the 20-30' down mark and I think thats what is doing all the transfering of the vibrations.

I'd consider the traditonal large cement block foundation but I really don't think that'd help since it'd still transfer into the ground. Anyone have any experience with this setup and this sort of land conditions? Would it work?

My other option is to lay out some real thick rubber matts and add some steel framing and heavy plate with new wood beams in the hope it won't even transmit to the ground.

Any ideas I'm getting fustrated everytime I want to use it and I start worrying the bylaw people are going to show up, it gets in the way of the creativity.

Pics of the current base setup.

[Chris Pook]

Another thing...

at the old shop it sat in a 20'x20' sand box that was 14" deep. I don't think that added mass is what made the difference in vibration tranfer though.

[rstegman]

Talking out of my ear,
but the sand absorbs vibrations, not act as mass. The small grains give way individually with each vibration, absorbing them.
Where I work in south Florida, Thuds on the streets such as when they were compacting the road bed during construction, is felt though the solid concrete floor of the building. One can also feel when someone drops a pry bar or some other heavy metal onto the ground outside. What is transferring the vibrations is the solid mass.

[Blacksmith Jim]

I would think that sand would go a long way to dampen vibration as well...

[Chris Pook]

The hammer sat on the concrete shop floor with the sand surrounding it that why I was thinking it would be more the mass of the sand helping.

[Tyler Murch]

Awesome hammer :)

[HWooldridge]

Try the rubber mats first. Tractor Supply sells a 3/4" thick horse mat for not too much money. You could throw 2-3 under the hammer and probably cut down a lot on vibration.

[Chris Pook]

Thanks Tyler. Its a real beast.

Hwooldridge, I'm going to look into thw horse mats, thanks.

[781]

Tall to Bob Bergman at Postville blacksmith or at Old World Anvils
I believe he sets his o steel plate. Or Ralph Sproul who hangs out at Forgemagic

[Chris Pook]

Yeah I have seen how Bob Bergman sets his up, I bought his rebuild video when I got the hammer. I called to talk to him last week but he was out of the shop. I'm thinking a similar setup but with rubber matts or similar cushion underneath the plate.

[David Jacobson]

I was at a hammer-in at Sierra Fire and Forge a few months ago. They have a nazel that is on a foundation that is surounded by white foam blocks, the kind they use in post tension building const. That realy works good on dampening the vibration.

Dave

Jacobson Manufacturing

[brucegodlesky]

Ya might also talk to Howard Clark. I believe he runs a 3B and can be found over at Don Foggs forum or Morgan Valley Forge.

[the_sandy_creek_forge]

Hey Chris,
Let me frame this comment by saying that I DO NOT own a power hammer at this time, let alone one as large as the 3B. That being said, I am in a somewhat passive planning/scrounging stage for building an air hammer (actually once I find a suitable chunk of anvil, the dirty work will get underway.) During this planning phase I've had time to think about a suitable foundation. What I think I've settled on is, for lack of a better term, a big wooden block type foundation. We've got plenty of hedge (that's osage orange for some of ya) rows on the farm. I plan on cutting a couple good sized hedge and squaring up the trunks with a chain saw. These logs will be cut into 2-3 foot length and will probably end up somewhere around 5x5 inches or 6x6 inches square. I'm gonna join these all together into a block the same size as the base of the hammer by the aforementioned 2-3 foot thick and dig out a hole big enough for it. the hammer base will mount directly to this block. Should be relatively solid and rot resistant. I think this technique might be something to think about in your case, as the wood would do a pretty good job of absorbing the vibration. I'd think you'd still get some vibration regardless of what foundation you use, but this type might go quite a ways in cutting back on it. And, hedge isn't a necessity. Oak or any hardwood would probably work just as well.

Just my $0.02 worth and something to ponder/discuss.

-Aaron @ the SCF

[Blacksmith Jim]

A local smith in town has a 4b set up that I've used. Didn't really pay attention to the vibrations, I'm not sure how much of a problem he has with it. But I do know, that he poured about 21 cubic yards of concrete underneath it as its foundation. My understanding is you want a good solid foundation that is not attached to the rest of your floor or shop.

[Ice Czar]

there is another approach

buy off the neighbor
develop a relationship, sort a schedual, build em some cool stuff and let them play with your toys.

We have a similar issue at work with our immediate nieghbor, they build cabinets and do a lot of paintingfinishing,
we on the other hand do alot of sandblasting

but a good relationship sorts those kinds of things out. (that and they use our forklift)
Good luck on the geotechnical front ;)

[Chris Pook]

Still running it on the wood blocks it has always been on.

My plan once the $ fairy drops off some cash is to cut a big hole in the floor, either form/pour a big concrete box in the ground or buy and drop in a unuseable due to flaws new concrete septic tank. Then line the box with foam,

Then doing one of two options

Option A is build a square square bin out of steel thats been heavily braced and has all the proper bolt down holes for the hammer and then fill it up with packed sand.

Going with sand instead of concrete so that the base is removable in case I ever do move.

Option B is to build a steel cage and use the cheap easy to get large cast cement blocks that cement companies make whenever they have left over cement.


I would consider pouring the block but due to a big building/construction boom build material like concrete is at an all time high $.

[patrick]

Chris,

I have and regularly use a 300 lb Bradley Upright (or Guided) Helve hammer. The ram and top die together on this hammer actually weigh 460#. My hammer sits on a foundation of reinforced concrete 4 feet wide, 5 feet deep and 10 feet long. The soil beneath and around this foundation is mostly small, rounded gravel that you find along rivers and streams. I did dig through some other layers of dirt and clay before stopping in the gravel layer. My hammer sits within 20 feet of my house and you can fee the hammer in the house when I run it. I don't have any close neighbors, so that is not an issue for me. I would strongly advise that you not put your hammer on just sand. The sand will not pack and over time the hammer will work down into the sand. Instead of stand, I'd suggest that you use gravel or a gravel and sand mix if you can spring for the concrete. When I did my foundation about 3 years ago, concrete was $65-75 per cubic yard. I am sure it has gone up, but it is worth the cost to set up a hammer properly.

Patrick

[David Jacobson]

Here's the foundation I just did for my 250# little giant. There is 4 yards of 8000 psi concrete. I went with the plans from Sid's little giant website.

Little Giant Power Hammer

Dave

Jacobson Manufacturing

[kalevra]

hello,
there is a company specializing in killing vibrations from machinery. Apparently they are very good at it, if pricey. The name is Fabreeka (I hope I have spelled it right). A smith friend of mine used them on his big hammers and is very happy as he has neighbors right across the wall. Good luck!
kalevra