Chain saw chain Damascus ????'S

[oakwoodforge]

Anyone have any tips on forge welding chain saw chain , I tried a billet tonight, ended up having to scrap 1/2 the billet to cold shuts. I am using hardwood charcoal and 20 mule team borax, I usualy have verry clean welds but this time 1/2 the billet kept seperating. When I do" weird stuff "Damascus I usualy double weld - overlaping weld sets on each plane ( @ 90 deg to each other). Weird thing is 1/2 the billet is perfect ( same temp- same fire ). I am just stumped, I never tried a chainsaw billet before, so this is all new to me. The chain I used is a USA made ( Sthil ) chain, so there is no plastic bushings to screw things up. Anyone have any experience with this stuff ?

[Don A]

Check this out:

http://www.knifenetwork.com/workshop/tut_chainsaw_burnett.shtml

[HWooldridge]

As a general rule on welding, cold shuts usually won't work themselves out later. Therefore, if you only got one end of it welded properly on the first heat, it may never close on subsequent tries. This can be due to burning, excess slag, etc. I watched a guy welding cable damascus at a demo and he got a spot on one end that would not weld for love nor money. He wound up welding behind the trouble area and then cutting it off on the hardy. The knife finished up just fine but he commented that he'd seen the problem before and removing the bad material was the only way he knew to fix it.

[oakwoodforge]

Thats exactly what I did, just choped off the junk end , did 2 folds and eveything went well, I ground the ends and sides to inspect just to be sure. For some reason that one end just wouldn't stick, got me stumped :?
ps. Don, thanks for the link, lots of great looking blades on that site, I've been checking it out at work between orders. 8)

[Glenn]

Could dirt inclusions be the reason for not sticking? Grease, earth, sand, etc

[oakwoodforge]

just for grins I tried a traditional Damasus billet in the same fire with no cleaning, 9 layers to start, 3 folds so far and everyhing is cool. Its 1095 , 4140 ,high nicklel 0.020 shim stock and steel banding , perfect welds through and through, after 36 layers I did pull out some big borax clinkers when I shut down the fire, but the billet is beautiful, no probs anywhere .
Before I tried the weld set on the chain saw chain I degreased with a enzyme based degreaser then again with a spray Brake cleaner, and then I let the chain " Soak " with a gentile air blast up to a cherry red, knocked the scale off, fluxed the crap out of it, let it" soak" again . Wire brushed, knocked it around, fluxed again , then brought to a welding temp( kinda extra bright cherry in my shop - atleast on high carbon stuff -it was singing and spitting sparks ) 1/2 the chain welded up great / 1/2 was crumbley crud. Oh well, what ever, the scap is scap now, I ground and etched the good part today, some cool random patterns there, I cant wait to make it a blade and see what it really looks like .

[HWooldridge]

A lot of violent sparking and/or bubbling is too hot - whether on high carbon or mild steel. Sounds like the first one burnt up to some degree but the other was right on the money. I don't weld much high carbon but do a lot of forge welding on mild steel and like to get where the fire is just barely throwing small sparks from the steel. A cascade of fireworks means I burned it.

[JPH]

Oakwood;

from someone who welds more in a week than most folks do in a year or two....you are too hot for high carbon steel if you are getting 'sparkler' kind of sparks.

If you are using straight laundry borax you should start the weld when the borax looks like hot syrup and is actively "bubbling" on the surface.

Bring it up to temp slowly. Low velocity high volume blast is better than a high pressure blow...make sure you are well soaked and do not use too much flux (yes this can be done and it can cause problems...) but just enough to evenly coat the weld area.

Overlapping weld ares is also a good idea.

You may need a little more agressive flux than plain borax. My flux recipe I have been using for the last 20 years sticks just about everything.

Fluxing properly will prevent all sorts of problems and frankly..the biggest problem out there ISN'T the flux, it's the wrong temperatures. Not enough soak time to allow everything to heat up all the way through.

Good luck..

JPH

[oakwoodforge]

JPH , Thanks for the tips man. To clarify what I ment by " singing and spitting sparks " is when it first begins to give off one or two carbon sparks and making that sound that lets you its time to weld I am sure you know it quite well. I do know that what you are calling " Sparkler sparks " Means its burnt ( done that a few times Giving more attention to my dog "Thor" than I was to my work in the fire )
As far as air blast goes I am running a 2" outlet 115 v electric squirrel cage military surplus blower with a rehostat, I only use really 2 speeds, really low and gentle breeze. I run a really deep charcoal fire, and every time I fire my forge I do alteast one or two welds, but latley I have been experimening with alot of damascus, and have had no major probs with "normal " billets ,stuff like 1095 and mild steel or O-1 and 4340 , or even steel banding and high carbon/nickle shimstock ( a extra-thin stock Billet is really easy to burn when you have 20 or so layers at less than 0.040" each layer , so a gentle blast is no stanger to me ) . For some reason that chain just gave me fitts, I think You are right , I think I burned it or over fluxed it , ( I Just figured that a billet with that many " voids " would need extra flux ) But I guess you could say that every bad mistake is a good lesson. The trick is, NOT repeating the bad Mistakes :oops:

[oakwoodforge]

PS : JPH what is the secret flux recipe, are you willing to share ? 8)

[Rich Hale]

When you heat steel to a red heat it begins to scale on the surfaces. Flux helps to remove this scale and we see that as stuff comeing out the sides as we begint to tap things into one mass. I never bring steel to red before fluxing,,,I think a good coat of flux helps prevent the scale. I heat the stock to just a dull red so the flux will adhere to the steel. then I bring up the temps to welding. I also do not weld chain into billets so keep that in mind also...You will solve your problems before I ever attempt chain. I grind all surfaces to be mated to remove any surface junk, That would be hard to do on chain and methinks there are areas in chain that may tend to trap stuff inside a billet. I wonder which end of the billet did not stick,,,the one you started the weld on or the other end...the more heats,,the more scale. One more item that I have to watch; If I have an area giving me trouble I have to be careful not to hit it harder to make it stick. Tap it lightly, brucs and flux, get it back into fire before it cools and do it again,,,calls for gentle touch,,,good luck

[HWooldridge]

I'll share something that I discovered accidentally about fluxing. I make items in production so will usually do stages for different parts before the final step. One item I make gets a piece of 3/8 square forge welded to a piece of 3/4 square. I swage the 3/4 down to about 5/8, scarf and put aside. I then upset the 3/8 and scarf. At this point, I take all the pieces and use the MIG to tack them together in the proper orientation so I don't have to chase the pieces around. This is not a seam but just a button on the side to hold the parts - the lips are left open to close during the forge weld.

I usually have the gas forge running but do my forge welding with coal. One day, it was getting late and I did not feel like doing the welding so I heated a dozen of these "assemblies" in the gas forge and applied flux, then set them aside. I always use EZ Weld or Sure Weld. Something distracted me the next day and the next also, so it was at least a week before I got back to that job. I didn't know if the flux was any good but it appeared the same as always, sort of a black glass, so I built a fire and went to welding. My coal is dirty so I consistently get about 7-8 forge welds before having to clean clinker but this time, I was able to push it to 10 before I missed a weld. I think this was due to no time spent fluxing (yes, I know some time was spent in the gas forge so not much was really saved).

The interesting thing to me is that the flux coating worked just fine a week after application and didn't take on moisture or flake off. Don't know if this helps anyone with their daily life but thought I'd share the observation.

[Glenn]

This weekend Billy Marrot of Indiana showed us how he forge welds. He put a hammer handle into the slack tub. He put the assembled billet into the coal fire and brought it up to welding temp. (To me this billet was high yellow, but everyone sees colors differently.)



He then removed the wooden hammer handle (no hammer head attached) and quickly pulled the billet from the fire, delivered it to the anvil and immediately "popped" it with the bottom of the wooden hammer handle. This was not a hard blow, but just a pop. He then popped it a second time, and finally a heavy third strike with the wooden hammer handle. He did mention that you could tell from the pop and the hit if the weld took or not.

From there the billet went back to the fire and was brought back to welding heat. Then he picked up a hammer, finished the weld and started drawing out the billet.

This photo was staged at the end of the third pop with the wooden hammer handle. This will give a visual idea of how much heat was lost during the process and how much heat still remained when it went back into the fire for a second heat.

Billy makes some FINE damascus, hammers, tongs, knives, swords, golf club heads, and the list goes on and on and on.

[Rick Barter]

I had to leave the hammer-in before I got to see this demonstrated, but I can second what Glenn said. Billy knows his stuff and was a pleasure to meet and talk with.

His damascus stuff is absolutely gorgeous.

rvb

[Ed Thomas]

Glenn: What did Billy say was the advantage of using a wood handle?

[Glenn]

To show folks that you did not have to use a killing blow from a hammer to get a good forge weld. All you needed was to pop it with the bottom of the headless wooden hammer handle and that would provide enough force to make the weld.

[Ed Thomas]

So it was for demonstration purposes only? Did you get the impression that he did that as a matter of routine in his own shop?

[Glenn]

He did it with such confidence and physical ease that the billet would have been ashamed not to have welded. Both only come from practice and doing something many many times.

[Ed Thomas]

Glenn: I meant, did he indicate that he routinely used the wooden handle to forge weld in his own shop? I'm not sure what the advantage is.

[Glenn]

He did not say what method (hammer or wooden handle) he used in his shop. The whole point was to show folks that it did not take a killer blow to make a forge weld.

[oakwoodforge]

Here are a few pics of a billet I made for my wife , her Damascus bracelet will be the envy of everyone at the next renisisance festival. The billet is 1040 and 1085 36 layers , etched with phosphoric acid, finished with heat
( for color ) and camilla oil for rust resistance.




Edit: photos resized