matei campan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 hi all there is an anvil coming to me in near future, for the moment I just got some pics. here are pics of the two horns. especially the round one has the tip damaged, I would like to dress it (them) a bit, to add some material to it to be more pointy and resurface the damaged/crumbled area. I really use these areas (though not very heavy work). it seems that the hardening is quiet shallow, and, on some areas, like the tips of the horns, it was just knocked off. I don't know yet if it's a cast steel one or a forged one. I think to weld a medium C piece to prolong that tip, then to resurface the damaged area, with, maybe, an overlap on the welded tip "addition". so what kind of stick you would use? I found some build up stick that's available locally that says it's shock abrasion resistant and will have a 51-57hrc after welding. it's a rutille electrode with 0.6 %C, 1.1%Mn, 1.0% Si, 2.8% Cr what do you think about that? is that OK? and how you'll proceed - preheating, which temperature, etc? and if it works, I would like to make also some minor repairs on the edges to fix some dings (not forcefully) , nothing massive as you can see in the pics: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Three things I would say. Your anvil looks fine to me. New, sharp edged, flat anvils are a pain in the neck. An old worn one is much more useful, honest! Every chipped and radiused edge gives you another opportunity to achieve a particular form. Celebrate the possibilities! Get to know your anvil, use it for a few months and only then consider "improving" it. If you need a sharp edge or a particular radius you can always weld a Hardy Hole sized peg on the bottom of an appropriate block and use the anvil as a tool carrier. The third point is there is not much point in knowing the spec of your welding rod if you do not know the spec of the anvil if you see what I mean. I have a non-technical but "self-preservatory" approach to welding old anvils and hammer tools. I do not know the material or the heat treatment it has had so I make any repairs with 312 dissimilar metal tig or stick rods. It is tough and will stick to most things and not crack or chip off, you can always put a bit more on it if it wears. For our forging tools I think that is safer than trying to reproduce the hardness of the original and risking bits flying off at you. As long as you are forging hot metal your tooling does not need to be that hard unless you are in production. Like the old saying goes about moving into to a new property, live in it for a year before you cut any trees down. You might need their shade or shelter! Probably not what you wanted to hear, but good luck with it whatever you decide, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 thanks the edges, in fact, are just fine, I don't want them sharper and I already say it's not a must, just cosmetic, if the repairing it is ok. what I want to repair is just the tip of the rounded horn and a bit the square one. as for using every feature of an anvil and other bits of tools, I'm the master (just kidding, but not much). I work on everything. I also regret a worn out anvil, with a good amount of "dish" and other "interesting" features (but it was not mine), as I was able to do more work on it than if it was perfect. I was able to do work no one in the country was even consider to make and not know how to, (a lot of copper sheet ornaments) using a legwise in wich I used to fix a plough share, a pipe, a pipe "elbow", and a couple of iron bits. If someone would have seen the work, then the tools, would have been asking "but where are the tools"... I still have a dished anvil with rounded corners, etc., and other anvils, each with different shapes and sizes (I'm starting to get spoiled, more anvils than I need, I've got the "anvil virus", you know..., but I just can't help myself) so, I could use it as it is, but, if possible and not too complicated, I would like to fix it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 that's true that I also use a lot mild steel tools, I even prefer the softer hammers for forging (so that they will take the abuse not the anvils). so, if the tip of the anvil is not as hard, this doesn't bother me much, but, again, if possible, and not a real pain, I would like it a bit harder (indenting resistant) than mild steel. what bothers me the most is that crumbled area, where the hardened layer is broken and somewhat peeled away. I could just grind that and reshape, to smoothen the area, but I don't want to take from the hardened thickness, but rather add material. and also, I don't want to spend more money on welding sticks than I spent on the anvil :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 If I did a lot of lighter, smaller scale work involving a narrow, cone shaped area of tooling I`d be thinking about making specialized tooling such as top tooling, a mandrel or something held in a vice before I`d think about welding a permanent modification/ attachment made from different material and a different hardness to my otherwise completely functional anvil. But that`s just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 so, if the tip of the anvil is not as hard, this doesn't bother me much, but, again, if possible, and not a real pain, I would like it a bit harder (indenting resistant) than mild steel. Well we are all on the same hymn sheet then! The 312 is Stainless Steel based and is significantly harder than Mild Steel so it should do you fine. I think it is used to "butter" more exotic steels as a primer or foundation for the hard facing rods. It stands up to forging Mild Steel, 316 Stainless and Progen tool steel on both my hammers reasonably well. 3cwt and 1cwt . Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I would make a hardy tool that has a smaller horn, (actually I have several that I have made from structural steel line up pins) Making the tip of the horn any more pointed is making a tool to injure yourself. Many old anvils had a horn made from just low carbon wrought iron and that seems to have worked often for several hundred years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ditto on what Thomas said. I find great enjoyment in making tools that I need. You can pretty much make any tool that you need to fit in your hardy hole. The last thing that you need is a pointed horn at thigh level. You could dress up the horn a little with a flap wheel if you want to remove any deformities. Mark <>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Anvils are blunted off for a reason. No somebody did not drop it on concrete, the concrete breaks first. A 1/2 inch ball tip is as pointy as I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 ok then, no pointy (cause I have other pointier anvils and less pointy as well, so it's not an issue), but, instead of dressing by removal, I'd prefer to add, as I said before. what other alternatives to 312 stainless rod would be (that being one option) other than mild steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) My suggestion of 312 was for the hard faced parts, if it is just that hollow in the beak you want to fill then mild steel should be fine. Try it with a file, as Thomas noted if it is a Wrought Iron bodied anvil the beak/bick will likely not have a hard face anyway. The top surface of the beak will have work hardened over the years and the welding may anneal that and make it a bit softer in the HAZ (heat affected zone), but it will toughen up again. If it is a cast anvil then maybe I would stick with the 312. But the fact that it has got a hollow in and deformed looks like it is soft. Can't quite tell from the photo whether it is wear or displacement. For my 50kg Reiter which I used as my main hammer for ten or twelve years I invariably had a pair of fuller tools on it and made up a bottom table from mild steel which I could just drop on mid-heat. That was a piece of 12mm (1/2") mild steel plate on a 25mm (1") plate box which fitted the bottom tool and rested on the sow block and the top plate touched on the top of the fuller. That mild steel did an awful lot of forging and I only filled the worn hollow a couple of times with mild steel mig. It initially lasted un-repaired for 6 or 7 years when it was only me using it. But then I started having assistants and journeymen who got carried away by the apparent ability of the hammer to move material when it was too cold! It is not used as much since I have had the other hammers but it is still going strong over thirty years later. If your repair is primarily for aesthetic reasons, then 312 would not be good because you would see the stainless area. If it is wrought iron of course you could always get some mates around and stick it in a fire and re forge it. edited for clarity (I hope!) Edited October 23, 2012 by blackersmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matei campan Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 thank you there's not only a depression/deformed area, it's a mix of crumbled(?) and "peeling off" (displacement, as you say) of a hard layer (being it the normally hardened layer or work-hardened or both), and that's bothering me. if it would be just a deformation, I wouldn't bother too much. the "peeling" is present also on the square horn, but not too much. as for the material, I don't know yet what is made of and how. it could be cast steel, but also other things. I bought it from France, it's a classic French anvil in very reasonable shape, generally, except that horns and minor chipping. it's a beauty (at least for me, who I am fond of French anvils), but I'm still waiting for her (why I just said "her"?)... I'll post some pictures of her naked, full body, when I'll get it. the repair, if done, I want it both cosmetic and functional, so that's why I asked for alternatives to 312 stainless, as it will shine like silver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I would start with a spark test, and see if I had a similar sparking piece of material to practice with prior to welding the anvil. This far out on the tip I would try 7018 first and see if the color is acceptable. Look up appropriate preheat, etc. No need to heat the whole anvil this far out on the tip though. Frequently the horn is not ever hardened even if it is a steel faced horn. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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