water bellows

[Azur Jahić]

i FOUnd on internet a water bellows :Example you have to drum or bucket one is have a two hole and one have a water inside .i have some draws , DO you have some videos how is this bellows work they look easy to make

[Keith Rider]

I've never heard of it before, but it sounds simple enough. Probably use a big drum full of water with an open top; a smaller bucket goes in the water up side down. The smaller bucket will need two openings in it, one inlet and one outlet. The inlet port would just have a flap valve on it for one way air flow into the bucket. The outlet port needs a one way valve and a hose attachment. The smaller bucket will need to be attached to a lever arm so that you can pump it up and down. The air will be pushed out of the hose on the down stroke and sucked in the inlet on the up stroke.

Send us a picture if you make one.

[Azur Jahić]

i have some draws
http://www.iforgeiron.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=47300

[Keith Rider]

Clever and cheap to make. I imagined the blow pipe being attached to the inner bucket, but the way it is in the drawing would make it easier to build.

[Maillemaker]

Very clever, but it would only be single-action. Unless you built two, it wouldn't give a constant air supply.

Hang on, that gives me an idea. Will post pictures soon.

[Maillemaker]

If you had a trough, or large water reservoir like a 55 gallon drum cut in half lengthwise, you could put two air buckets side-by-side, and rig them to work in tandem with a pulley system. Maybe attach a flexible tube, like garden hose, to the inside of the buckets above the waterline, and hook them up to your tuyere.

[Keith Rider]

I think it would be simpler to make it so that the first bucket pumps air into the second bucket and the static water pressure pushes the air out of the second bucket into the forge. The action would be similar to an old-fashioned bellows, but the water pressure would take the role of the bricks that usually ride on top of the bellows. Still super-simple.

The only drawback would be the size and weight of two big drums of water. In lots of applications that wouldn't be a problem, though.

[Maillemaker]

http://s1355.beta.ph...html?sort=3&o=0

Something like this?

[Chinobi]

i could see a system like this functioning well, driven by a rocking arm much like a railroad pump trolley.



uses smaller buckets, less water, could even be set up to work in a ditch/pond/natural water source. power by hand or by foot treadle or whatever is handy.

im assuming that this approach is to eliminate the need to fabricate or source fabric or other flexible material for the sidewalls of a more traditional type of bellows?

dont forget that a one way valve does not have to be complicated, it can be a flexible piece of rubber that is attached on only one edge and covers the vent during the right part of the cycle.

(edit: im not sure why the image does not show a preview icon, but clicking it brings up the pic. any thoughts?)

[Maillemaker]

Chinobi, that was similar to my first idea. Both designs would give a smooth, consistent air flow. Essentially, you have two single-action bellows working in tandem, while my design is a double-action system. Well done.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Good grief young man, your all over the place. Get a shop vacuum. Put a metal drier hose on the exaust and turn it on. Make an air gate or use a rheostat to control the air blast. It will take you about 5 minutes to set up.

[Chinobi]

i think that probably would be the simplest way to get there, but the constraint was 'without using electricity'.

however reading through again it appears that that particular tidbit is not actually in this thread, perhaps i am remembering from a different one of Azur's threads regarding bellows, or just making things up entirely :)

[Pault17]

The hair blow-dryer or vaccuum ideas do work. The water bellows would work but would be a work-OUT. just think about lifting even a 5-gallon metal drum repeatedly, ALL DAY LONG! for all that, I would build a set of double bellows. They even take up less space and are easier to carry (think about moving two 55-gallon drums of water). but then again, you could have a circulating quench tank...

[Maillemaker]

counterweights could help with the heft.

[Chinobi]

you have the concept backwards Paul, im not arguing that it would not be strenuous, but if it is set up well there should be minimal resistance.
i do also agree that a counterweight would be very useful and permit the use of a drive system that only needs to apply force in one direction.

the principle is that the bucket that is moving and the water level stays the same (to the extent that the plumbing is sized correctly to avoid too much suction and overpressure through the cycle, there will be some rise and fall in the water level that is unavoidable).

if your valves or tubing into the buckets are too small it will restrict the rate at which air can enter the bucket and cause the water column within to be carried up above the outer water level when the bucket rises, adding to the force needed to operate the lever during the inhale.

if the valves/tubing out of the bucket are too small the air will not be able to escape fast enough as the bucket sinks which will cause the opposite effect and will drive the water level inside the bucket down below the outer water level, adding the static water pressure difference across the bucket to the force needed to operate the lever on the exhale.

so if the system is put together correctly and sufficiently sized the water level should remain pretty constant and not add very much resistance to the lever.

personally i would size it to utilize 5(five) gallon buckets, or even paint cans, or whatever other vessel is readily available, the 55 gal drums are too large, requiring a taller frame and (pure conjecture following) may produce too much airflow for a small forge. i would also recommend relocating the system, and then filling it, rather than trying to shuffle around full buckets of water.

[Frosty]

I've seen water bellows somewhere online, they seem to be pretty standard fare in 3rd world countries where a smith needs a shop setup rather than a traveling rig. Even as a single lung bellows a 20gl barrel in a 55gl drum makes for a good constant air blast without having to constantly pump it. Seriously, all you need is a 55gl drum and a pond and you're in clover.

Counter weighting the handle would really help and making the intake large even more. say, 2" for the outlet and 4"+ for the intake so you're not lifting any more than the drum's weight.

Even better still if you have a waterfall or a stream you can make a little flume for so you can get a good fall you've got a source for an air blast that doesn't require pumping and doesn't quit. Simply make a little waterfall that falls into a length of pipe, you don't need to even block or restrict the bottom, the falling water will induce a strong flow of air just by passing through the pipe. The outlet restriction is only to force air to go where you want it. A "T" fitting about 1/3 of the way to the bottom and you'll have a constant air flow.

This method was used early on to supply air to mines and then to foundries, it's old school, very old school but elegantly simple and very reliable. If you have doubts stand by a waterfall and feel the breeze.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Pault17]

Yeah. counterweights. Cranial (as in brain) effluviation (as in effluviation - look it up) time . the flume idea sounds neat if you are near a place with hils and running water.