Gundog48 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I had a go at forging my first sword the other week as I have spent a lot of time learning the theory, but theory is better understood when you can relate it to practical experience. It didn't go too badly, at least it was easier than I thought it was going to be after hearing what people say about swordsmithing, although I did have one problem that was far bigger than the others. I draw out the tang, then I forge it so that the blade is 2" at the base, tapering to 1" at the tip. This is where I struggled. First, how do you get an even taper? Because marking the steel wouldn't work, forging the blade down to a 1" tip that must be dead straight was quite difficult, what is the best approach for this? The other one I had was when drawing the steel down to the taper, even when peening the edge properly, I ended up making the steel bunch up and become thicker around the edge rather than drawing down and keeping the thickness uniform. With this and trying to keep the line dead straight and without flaws, I had quite a hard time and ended up having to do a fair bit of grinding before forging the bevels. I've read 'The Complete Bladesmith' cover to cover a few times, but it really goes into no detail about forging the taper, obviously this calls upon some of the stuff learned when knifemaking, but it really is quite different and a bit of advice would be most useful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 You taper a sword or knife the same way as any other bar of metal. The book by JPH does not call on prior knife making as much as having prior general blacksmithing experiance, You jumped into an advanced field of the hobby without taking the time to learn the basic skills needed to do it, so you should expect there are going to be troubles for you. Reading you other posts, I admit you have desire, even if you do not listen to the answers you are given. Make your wall hanger and have fun, If you want to make a real sword, start listening to the answers people have spent their valuable time to give you already, as many will stop answering at all anymore until you do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundog48 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi Steve. I'm aware of how to taper metal, and I have done a fair amount of basic blacksmithing skills prior to moving on to bladesmithing. In theory, it is the same as tapering any other piece of steel, but the length brings it's own problems, as maintaining a straight and centered taper becomes a lot more difficult. The best way I can see would be to draw it out using a rounded die or the horn of the anvil, that way it should be centered and should draw out rather than just increase the thickness, as I get when I peen it. I'll be getting a lot of tools next week, as I'm really working with the barebones hammer and anvil. The other option would be to use a bottom fuller to put deep grooves in it, similar to peening, but a lot deeper, I just need to be sure they are the same depth both sides. I'm rather offended by your claim that I don't take on board advice. That's why I'm here, asking questions, looking at other people's work, how they do things and trying to translate that into my own work. I post what I make here, sometimes with videos so that I can get advice on how to improve my work, all the way down to hammer control and position. I'm sure you didn't mean to cause offense, but someone who doesn't take advice from more experienced smiths is incredibly arrogant which is one of the things I despise the most. What I make will be a wallhanger, just like the last one, not least because I'll be forging mild steel. The reason for this is that I wanted to have a go at swordsmithing without wasting good steel, so I can get a taste of the practical problems of swordsmithing to relate to when I'm reading theory. The other reason is that I don't have the facilities to properly heat treat a sword due to the length, so using a nice piece of 5160 would be a complete waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 How do you get to Albert Hall? Practice! Practice! Practice! Also when working the edge you need to either align it along the edge of the anvil so you can work the very edge down with your hammer blows with the hammer face 1/2 way off the anvil so you are pinching the very edge down. (The blade should be held at an angle on the anvil so you keep the bevel in the middle instead of flat on the anvil so you get the bevel only on one side. Another method is to use a hammer with a quite domed face so you can put the edge (at an angle) on the middle of the anvil and essentially hit the anvil right next to the edge pinching the edge with the domed face of the hammer---a domed hammer leaves more hammer marks to deal with than a slightly rocker faced hammer though. But many people find it easier to deal with that than to hold the anvil right on the edge of the anvil and hit it half off and then reposition the blade and hit it again. As mentioned by Steve: we sort of expect you to get good with tapers making S hooks and things *before* you start down the blademaking path---and as tell my students they should make their weight in knives before they get into swordmaking so all they have to learn is the more complex mechanics of the swords rather than trying to lean the basic, intermediate and advanced parts of smithing all at the same time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi Steve. I'm aware of how to taper metal, and I have done a fair amount of basic blacksmithing skills prior to moving on to bladesmithing. In theory, it is the same as tapering any other piece of steel, but the length brings it's own problems, as maintaining a straight and centered taper becomes a lot more difficult. The best way I can see would be to draw it out using a rounded die or the horn of the anvil, that way it should be centered and should draw out rather than just increase the thickness, as I get when I peen it. I'll be getting a lot of tools next week, as I'm really working with the barebones hammer and anvil. The other option would be to use a bottom fuller to put deep grooves in it, similar to peening, but a lot deeper, I just need to be sure they are the same depth both sides. I'm rather offended by your claim that I don't take on board advice. That's why I'm here, asking questions, looking at other people's work, how they do things and trying to translate that into my own work. I post what I make here, sometimes with videos so that I can get advice on how to improve my work, all the way down to hammer control and position. I'm sure you didn't mean to cause offense, but someone who doesn't take advice from more experienced smiths is incredibly arrogant which is one of the things I despise the most. snip Nothing personal, but you are the one that posted in another thread you just started smithing a few months ago. Almost every where people have asked about swords, it has been advised to get solid foundation in smithing first, then move on to smaller blades, and then progress to larger, where if you had, you would have figured this out already. This is a big jump in only a few months, then you ask a very basic question about tapering, what else should I think? With a knife one can get away with a flat bar, but a functional sword has width and thickenss distal tapers to work out, as well as harnonic nodes. This sword section I take seriously, and I try to show people how to make quality products. I feel that people can not do so with out learning basic skills first. I do not feel a few months is long enough to have mastered blades, and then move on to swords, expecially when you dont understand how to taper, I said back up and get the basics down, If that offends you sorry. I only have your statements to tell me what you know. carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundog48 Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thanks Thomas, I think I understand what you're saying, also found a great video by Joe about drawing out evenly. Steve, you're certainly right there, I won't be ready to forge a sword for a long time. The reason I want to try is to learn. Before I started forging knives, I read book after book about it, watched hundreds of videos and loads of guides on the Internet. I sat there reading it thinking, "okay, that's easy enough" and "I understand how that works". Thing is, as soon as you physically get to the forge, heat up your steel, everything is different from how it is in the book. The stuff that seemed simple is actually quite hard, sometimes due to the tooling you have, the angles you have to hold things at, and the placement of the grip. After spending my first 8 hour session forging blades, I reread my books, and found another level of understanding. You can read how things are done, then imagine the impracticalities and difficulties you may face and properly think of how you would do it when you are standing there with a hot piece of steel in your tongs. I'm not trying to forge a sword to make a good sword, I know that won't happen. I'm doing it to learn more, to properly relate to written words so that when I eventually do come to forging a sword properly, I will have a good idea what I'm up against and how I will face the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 My point is that YOU CAN make a great sword, I fear people jumping in too soon on any advanced project, because some tend to give up, I know I can come accross as a jerk, I dont intend to. Set the large blade aside and play a bit I was lucky to have been taught by one of JPHrisoulas students, and have had JPH for input, and giving me a butt kicking as well. I rough forge the general shape, then starting at the tip work my way back a little at a time, I do not try to get tip 100% at first, partialy because when its thin enough it will heat faster than the next section, so after rough shaping, then tip reducing 1/3 or so thickness and refine contours, for a 3 or 4 inch section, then moving back toward the pommel end, the next 3 to 4 inches, When I get back to the cross guard area, I go back to tip and then get it closer to 2/3 or so, and repeat, over lapping the stop start areas from the previous time. This is a slow process, but I have plenty of time to adjust, Also many steels dont like to move a lot of mass too fast, so this avoid those issues, as well as the thermal cycling it gets by being heated 4 or 5 times and cooling off as I work. preventing large grain growth. I only have done the rough shape for tang up to this point. leaving the mass so it does not over heat, and I have a large handle to hold while forging, Now is th time for the tang. The last time through is when I do a fuller, if the blade calls for one. cleaning fuller and profile. I hate seeing a passion turn to dusgust becasue if rushing in before the required skill set is extablished. If you have spent that much time reading, then get to the anvil and start a smaller blade , focusing on what I said, not the finish blade results, as much as focusing on your proceedures, with the sword project in mind. Notice how the metal moves when you hit the flat vs the edges to straighten. A small blade allows more variance and bad habbits in procedure, but it is also a good time to stop bad habbits now that will bit ya in the butt later. We all can do it if we want to, but so many rush then give up from frustration, not because they dont have the tallent, but they rushed into it with out the needed experiance. Dont fall into that catagory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundog48 Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Thanks Steve, that information is exactly what I was looking for. Also just got myself a great set of tools, including a few hardy fullers, you wouldn't believe (actually, I'm sure you would) how much easier and cleaner drawing out is using one, I am feeling a lot more confident now. When I go to do this, I'll use your method, it sounds very thorough. Hopefully I may be able to forge a wallhanger worthy of my wall, and eventually move on to forging a proper sword. May I ask what kind of fullering tool you use? I made a lever arm fuller, but the quality really isn't good enough. I think I understand you better now. The reason I want to move on to make a sword is, as I explained, to learn and improve. I've forged quite a few knives, although I've only finished a couple of them properly as I don't like ruining well forged blades by doing the grinding with the incorrect tools. I've designed my belt grinder and am waiting to hear back from a few steel merchants to get the materials, once that's done, I have over a dozen knives to finish off! I've gotten quite good at getting knives to look exactly how I want them in the forging stage, so now I want to challenge myself and do something much harder. I don't give up on things when they don't go well, it just gives me more motivation to get better and make it work, if I judged myself on the first few knives I made, I wouldn't still be smithing! I've done a load of knives, I've been doing a lot of decorative stuff like horse's head bottle openers and scrolled candle holders, but I find swords beautiful, and to just get a taste of the possibility that I could make a sword-shaped object myself gives me all the motivation I need! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Lately my main tool for major drawing out is my rolling mill I built. Other than that I use the arch of the horn along with a fullering hammer (thanks for the idea Brian Brazeal) I made from a 3# double jack. It is a combonation cross and straight peen hammer BUT the radius is about 8 inches diameter , rather than a normal peen radius of 1/2 to 1 inch diameter. I will show photos of it in the knife chat Rich Hale and I are starting again this month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gundog48 Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Really looking forward to the knife chat. I'm gathering parts for a tyre hammer to help with drawing out as I spend most of my time changing size of the stock to a size I can work with rather than actually forging the product, a rolling mill could be a really good alternative, thanks for the idea, I'll check it out! I did use a cross peen before I got the bottom fuller, but it really didn't have the weight, and I think a straight or combination peen would have been more useful as it is difficult to get a good blow in from all angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsoldat Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Thanks for posting your process Steve. Might help me out with a few projects I have in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Swords are hard to "learn on" as they cycle slowly. As a gedanken experiment think of a task that takes 5 years from start to finish---will you remember all the pesky little things you learned the first go round compared to a task where you do the same sorts of thing but you do one every weekend? Why we suggest people do their learning on knives, then move on to large knives and only then go on to swords. And yes completing them is MANDATORY as the heat treat is the "soul" of a sword and you need to test how you are doing with it---and most folks are not willing to destroy their first 10 swords or so checking if the heat treat is correct for that alloy and design... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 One of the things that make teaching swords a pain, is so many arm chair experts, people that never made a real sword, complain when those of us that have, tell people to start small, and then they interject their guesses. Others accuse us of keeping secrets, when in fact the only real secret is to acutally do the WORK. We should make it a law that to offer advise one should first prove they aint just quoting wakipedia or a fantasy video game ;) but it aint gonna happen, and the poor student that is serious has to wade through the trash posted all over the internet. But I guess that means only the very serious will ever have a real chance to make one ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I am NOT a blade guy. In your chase to find a good taper, look to your grinder. Practice with your rounding hammer until there are few elephant tracks as possible in your forgings. Then use the grinder just like it would be used on a blade. When you get good, there will be a whole lots less grinding while you will be supremely interested in the quality of every blow of the hammer. Do not believe it? Ask all those bladesmiths around...they will tell you the hammer control starts the whole program. Congrats on your first attempt though. No one here would ever want to take that away from you. They had their first once upon a time. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I am assuming that you are talking about forging a distal taper (ie one that goes from tang to tip). Most sword blades have tapers in doth dimensions. the last sword blank I forged ended up at 52mm by8mm at the guard and 22mm by 4mm at the tip, that is before bevelling and forming the point. blade length 102cm (big long sword). this oblong section sword blank is called a sunobe by Japanese sword smiths and a blade blank by me. There are a few things to consider when forging an accurate taper such as this, one is how much width you will be adding when bevelling and also how much length. I am less worried about extra length as this can be chopped off. the material distribution is important as it will determine the potential width of the blade and its final thickness. When it comes to forging the blade you must remember that forging between hammer and anvil forces the steel in two directions not one, so when you forge the blade width down, the blade becomes less wide but also thickens. You must compensate for this unwanted thickening by forging the blade thinner (especially the edges) the blade will become a little wider when you do this, so you must forge the blade width again.....this thickens the blade....... here we go....... two steps forward , one step back . a little bit on the edge a little bit on the flat, on an on, little by little. If you use a fullering hammer then it could be 3 steps forward and one step back, however I would stay with a flat hammer (with dressed edges) as you will be spending a lot of time cleaning up hammer marks made with a cross pein. Forging blades is a simple process (in theory) but the pedantic and exacting nature of the sword makes this simple process surprisingly complicated. when you come to bevels remember the two steps forward one step back as you will stretch the blade as well as widening it.... good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Also remember that forging is a lot more "fun" than grinding! So forging close to size will save *hours* with the noisy, dusty, *dangerous* grinder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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