Lack of skill? or impatience ?

[Guiltyspark]

The past two knives i have made have turned out really great.

But im afraid that im not doing enough "forging".

The first knives i tried making were of railroad spike just to mess around and learn beveling and stuff.

But the next two were flat peices of 5160 and 440c. On the first one i spent a few days trying to forge a sharp point on the 5160 , but just ended up having this rounded point that looked like the point of a sword or something. And the tip was upset around all the edges. So i just took a grinder out and ground my point with that.

I guess im having a hard time

1. forging a point
and
2. Forging a full tang.


So what i end up doing is grinding both profiles out with a grinder.

Is this "cheating"?

Or is sometimes grinding the only way to achieve a certain shape?

I can never manage to make anything "sharp" to a point or get square edges by hammer use alone.

Is this because im using a railroad anvil with a bad surface? Is my metal not hot enough?

[Maillemaker]

There really isn't a strict rule for "cheating" in blacksmithing.

I have no qualms using a grinder to clean up the profiles or bevels.

There's an old expression, "ten minutes at the forge will save you an hour with a file". Hot forging is one of the most efficient ways to shape steel, and if you're having trouble with the basic skills, maybe you should step away from bladesmithing for a little bit and work on the fundamentals. Knife points are just tapers, like J-hooks. Forge 20 tapers of different sizes, shapes, and lengths, and your knives should come out all the better for it.

Making shoulders for a full tang usually requires a guillotine or hardy fuller to work on both sides of the steel.
Here's a link to what a spring fuller can look like
http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/27116-spring-fuller/page__hl__%22spring+fuller%22

As for your anvil: what do you mean by "bad surface"? Primitive cultures often used large rocks for anvils, and they're able to work iron just fine.

How hot is your steel? Dull red is workable for some steel, but orange/yellow is much more malleable, meaning that your hammer blows are more efficient. Also, more heat means more time to work.

[Rich Hale]

The answer above on basics hits it righton the head. As to whether you are impatient or not depend on how much time have yoiu spent at this. If youi have a couple of years behind you, and not just an hour a week!, then you should be concerned about youir basics. If youi have not spent the time then donto expect the skills you need. They will come but you need an anvil and perhaps spend time with other smiths,Either watching or participating or best is getting some hands on instruction. That all said. There is not a problem with you using a grinder for yoiur clean up. MAke the best youi can using wotever methods yoiu have.
Keep an eye on the home page here for the dates late next month for knife Chat, Steve Sells and I havfe talked for a long time aboiut how we coiuld help new folks and perhaps some more experienced balde folks get a good start, At the very least we may show youi something that gets yoiu thinking abouit other methodes, or confirms your methods.

[ThomasPowers]

On thing I often do for curved points is to actually forge the curve up a bit over the spine and then trim it back even with the spine---this can deal with bird's mouth issues.

All blades get ground. How much grinding *you* want to do is up to you. For most of us forging is the *fun* part and grinding is "just a grind"; so we like to do more of the fun and less of the "work". Forging also allows you more latitude in shaping---think of the piece of stock you would have to grind away to get a strongly curved blade compared to just bending it while hot (or letting the beveling bend it for you.)

May I strongly suggest you visit someone making knives by forging and get a bit of hand's on help?

(and in general a large chunk of solid scrap steel will work better than a piece of RR rail for an anvil)

[Guiltyspark]

when i say bad surface i mean its pockmarked with hammer blows badly , and im not sure if its heat treated.

It just doesnt feel right when shaping steel.

Maybe its the hammer im using.

How flat should the face be of the hammer?

[Maillemaker]

Usually a forging hammer has a slightly domed face, with no sharp corners. The sharper the edges, the worse the hammer marks are.

[Guiltyspark]

Usually a forging hammer has a slightly domed face, with no sharp corners. The sharper the edges, the worse the hammer marks are.

hmm thats not it then....

when i grind a knife it looks great , but i have to grind ALOT and i feel like im wasting steel when i do it.

Like the worst thing for me right now is when i do the handle , the surface is never flat and its almost impossible to fix enough to get the scales on. so i have to grind the upset edges because they are so raised up and uneven.

I see these videos and people are making these clean forgings that look almost arrow straight , im thinking it has to do with my anvil or something.

[Jacques]

I should say lack of skill.

I also had a lot of trouble with forging the blades and I forged 15 blades in a month (didn't finish them, yet) and my forging improved immensely.

Take a piece of steel and keep going at it until it is right. In the beginning it will take very long, but you will learn from your mistakes.

[ThomasPowers]

If you search the net you can find a video of a Nepalese? smith forging beautiful kukris using a sledge hammer head as his anvil. How many dozen blades have you forged? Did you start out forging other items and only switched to blades *AFTER* you have developed hammer control? Have you read "The Complete Bladesmith" by Hrisoulas?

Your tang issues sounds like you have not been hammering on the flats *after* you hammer down the "edges"---it's a two steps forward, one step back technique where you hammer down on the "edges" so the tang is smaller than the blade is wide and then you hammer on the flats to make them flat---which makes it expand a bit so you have to do another cycle, repeat until satisfied.

Most of the issues you have mentioned I cover in the first 2 hours of my "introduction to smithing" mini course I teach. I strongly suggest you spend a Saturday with someone who knows what they are doing it can save you MONTHS of trying to figure it out on your own or by trying to learn from the internet!

Check with your local ABANA affiliate and attend a meeting and ask if there is anyone close to you willing to help.

[pkrankow]

Several books illustrate using a chisel to form the tip after forging the rest of the blade to shape and thickness. A grinder is the same thing really.

Phil

[jmccustomknives]

You can "cheat" by cutting an angle () to start your point. As I understand it was common practice back in the day. If it's like a 45deg or less you can form a drop point, a little steeper and you can forge the edge down and the natural curving that the steel does will push the point up forming the "clip point". You might also try squaring off your hammer face (no sharp edges). This will make it a little easier to control the direction the metal goes.
As far as the RR anvil, I have two and they are most excellent for bladesmithing.

[Steve Sells]

One big thing you did wrong, :  Just starting out, but went from rr spike to 5160 to 440C.  all work differently but you have no way to know that, because you just started, so never learned how any of those 3 steels move. so anything you may have started to learn on the rr spikes, changes when you tried the 5160 then changed again at the 440C.  learn ONE steel first then move on to a new steel to try. after learning that well, then you try a third.

[dntfxr]

I'm no pro mostly a hobby for me, but a couple things I do is profile the point by laying the spine down and shape the tip right on the far edge of the anvil. Do this at a dull red heat. Also do the final shaping at a dull heat with soft blows to avoid hammer marks. You'll still have some file work especially at the tip but I leave the thicker tip until after heat treat. That way you don't burn it in the forge.

[CrookedPath]

Another tip i haven't seen mentioned here, is to make sure you brush off the scale before you begin hammering.  All those little black flakes that appear on the blade right after you take it out of the fire is called scale.  If they get between your anvil and your work they will leave an impression.  Some scale is unavoidable, especially in a coal forge, but you can reduce it by wire brushing both sides of the work right after you take it out of the fire.  The quest for less hammer marks on my blades is one I am currently on, too.  You will get there, just dont give up.

[jcornell]

Another cheap solution is to flip the work over while you still  have some heat and planish.  The working side of the piece is way more bumpy than the side that's against the anvil (assuming that you have a flat anvil face), so turn the piece over and tap the flat side lightly to use the anvil face to work those bumps flat before returning the work back to heat.  It's a lot easier to do it now, than to do it later with a sander, grinder or file.

 

J