Upsetting. For Real?

[pkrankow]

This video?

Courtesy of Firey Furnace Forge, Dave Custer.

Phil

[GregDP]

Wrapping the end of a bar around it's self and welding it as a solid mass, bundling a group of metal together and welding it.. or like you said drawing dawn a larger piece and welding it to a smaller piece. There are a ton of ways to avoid up setting..
The question was kinda vague, you can upset a length of bar into a sheet metal disk.. but who wants to do that for any other reason than fun and practice.

What are the practical limitations without machinery and some of the popular alternatives to upsetting?

[Judson Yaggy]

The 3 to 1 rule comes to mind when talking about upsetting. This is a rule for both hand work and in heavy industry with all the tools you could imagine. If the length of hot stock you are upsetting is more than 3 times the diameter of the stock, you will have problems. Your stock will buckle, fold or upset unevenly. There are some work arounds that involve moving the heat, or progressive upsetting dies, but for all practical purposes the 3:1 rule is firm. There is a ton of published information on this, as well as complimentary anecdotal evidence.

If you get to the point where you are making a 3" disc on the end of a 1/2" parent stock bar, you will need to start thinking seriously about grain flow and the possibility of your cold tooling quenching your large surface area workpiece. This is why we have invented things like lathes and welders, or as Subdoc mentioned, fullering and drawing down of big stock.

[Suboc]

The 3 to 1 rule comes to mind when talking about upsetting. This is a rule for both hand work and in heavy industry with all the tools you could imagine. If the length of hot stock you are upsetting is more than 3 times the diameter of the stock, you will have problems. Your stock will buckle, fold or upset unevenly. There are some work arounds that involve moving the heat, or progressive upsetting dies, but for all practical purposes the 3:1 rule is firm. There is a ton of published information on this, as well as complimentary anecdotal evidence.

Thats a good rule to remember, thanks for posting.
Dan

[TechnicusJoe]

Stephen: Seems you AND Joe think I was criticizing, my only intent was to add my favorite trick to efficiently upsetting the end of a bar.

Seeing as Joe seems to think I was being critical I viewed the video and this does indeed lead me to make some observations. I'm still not being critical Joe but you brought it up. No I don't do videos, I teach face to face.

You spent more than 6 minutes upsetting a piece maybe 3% or so. So efficiency isn't part of the game. Watching the upset end repeatedly drawn down to correct bending illustrates why straightening should be done either over the hardy hole or off the edge of the anvil. All that's needed is a little straightening, that's removing bend or bending it back. Drawing the thickness down is counter productive though it's really common for beginners.

To straighten a little bend simply place it high end up, and give the end a light tap, when the hammer kissed the shaft of the rivet you're DONE, stop and go back to upsetting if it's not large enough yet. Same for doing it over the edge of the anvil, in both cases use half face blows, that's the hammer face strikes half on half off the anvil face.

When it comes to dressing the shaft below the upset end, again use half face blows to avoid drawing the head down and do it off the edge of the anvil.

Lastly, once you've headed your rivet don't take it out of the header to cut it from the stock, use the header to hold it, score it deeply and break it by bending. This will save you wear and tear on both your hardy and your hammers. Once again it'll save you time at the anvil, walking back and forth to the forge and IN the forge. Time IS money, saved fuel is money.

The folks I show what I know aren't rich or they'd fly to one of the big name schools and I'd get them to teach me things when they came back.

I've seen video from way back of the two hammer upsetting technique. In that case the smith was working what looked like 3/4" or better stock and at least doubled it's dia. in maybe two minutes. Truly inspiring.

Frosty The Lucky.

Well great you post your favorite way, but that is kind of weird if you don't even watch the related video or pictures for example.
Do you do this with every post?

I can't even say anymore you were being critical as you didn't even watch the video! And I still stand you should make a video.
If you're a good smith, you got nothing to hide, or do you?

3% more flesh at the end by upsetting? I think you need to wear glasses, anyone can see it's more than 3%. Again, you bring ideas of how it should be done, then I "challenge" you again to make a video. Go the extra miles and actually show it.
I also don't know whether you really watched the video, or a few simple bits. But if you actually watched the video, you could clearly see I am taking my time to show how it's done. Can you name any part in that video I am working my behind off, soaked in sweat? I can't either.

I rather see a video than you explaining it by typing, everyone can explain by typing. Just pick up a book or internet file, copy the information, maybe adjust it a little so it looks more personal. And then hope it's the correct information. ( I have seen this happen in the forum, yes)

Frosty, as if that matters either. It all depends on what you know and what you've done most of the time. That is something you also have to take in account. Just like math, there are multiple ways to get the same result.
But I can already hear the "money-time" argument. A big part of the community is hobbyist, they don't make money off of it. Or Occasionally. So, why give them the same stress? Let them have their fun. And if they can experience more fun with a kind of stress/pressure on it. Then of course they should do that.

And what do your not so "rich" students have to do with this? You're saying they're only coming to you because you're a cheaper alternative? Something I've been told a lot in here I am going to tell you: videos or it didn't happen (one small adjustment).

[GregDP]

Thanks Judson. I thought I read something like that somewhere.
I just figured I'd post an example of how to get that super upset look welding