Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I'm site planning right now for my new shop. Basically pulling out tree's and seeing what dimensions can fit in the footprint of space I have available. I intend to build a very sealed up shop so I can weather the oregon winters and hot summers with ease. My old shop in mass was in a basement and I definitely miss it. Warm in the winter and cool in the summer because it had central air drops from the ceiling. I certainly can do the same thing in my new shop, or I could use a large electric heater and window unit A/C. Anyway my question is when you get a shop very sealed up and thermally insulated like this you do have to worry about welding and smithing fumes. One of the guys at the pro desk gave me some literature on an air scrubber. A pretty cool idea if it can actually handle filtering out tig welding fumes not to mention propane forging fumes (which I doubt it could be very good at all that. My other thought was to create some sort of high velocity inlets for fresh air and a sloped ceiling with heavy duty exhaust fan. This way I'd be bringing in fresh air and sucking out bad air and hopefully that would create enough flow throughto keep the shop fumeless. Of course doing this plan will destroy the idea of trying to maintain inner air temp. I'm curious what big factories do to keep their fab shops heated/cooled while still keeping the air breatheable. Any thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Basically, they spend a fortune. If you seal a shop from climate extremes, you can, and should, scrub the air for particulates from grinding and metal fumes. Small, portable scrubbers are available thru welding suppliers. But the build-up of Argon & CO2 from welding, or CO from propane forges, means that you must have some sort of air intake and exhaust, and air quality monitoring. What this means in practice is a dirty, minimally climate-controlled hot work & grinding shop, then a cleaner machine shop/tool room, and a final prep/paint/wrap for shipping area. Some well known knifemakers have a three stage shop like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben van Leeuwen Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Will your shop have a southern sunny exposure wall? You could maybe consider installing a solar air heater to preheat your incoming fresh air in the winter. There are several methods of doing this, either on a very large scale, or a small scale. Here is an example of a company that does large scale projects. http://solarwall.com...ow-it-works.php Perhaps, if you don't have a large wall exposed to the sun, you could do a roof mounted system. My brother built a super insulated house in Ontario, Canada last year. On his back wall, (could also be installed on a roof) he installed something similar to this. http://yoursolarhome...sheat/2pak.html His panel is 8'x8'. To give you an example of how efficient it is, on one cloudy winter day when I was there, the outside temp. was about 20 F. The fresh air he was drawing in through the panel was coming in at 86 F. The big issue is going to be the amount of air you need to draw in. Obviously, the fresh air intake has to equal the exhaust rate. The key would be to do the math and figure out how many CFM you will be exchanging and see how efficiently a solar air heater is going to work for you. Do a Google search for "Solar Air Heater". There are lots of companies, but even more DIYer's who are making their own panels. Even if you are using an air scrubber, you are going to want some fresh air coming in, and this way, you could at least benefit from the pre-heating. Cheers, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I suggest you put radiant heat in the floor, relatively cheap to do on your own. It is much nicer to have warm floor which translates to warm feet and tables and anything on the them than just warm air. Must be planned in advance as it is hard to add later. Simple thing is to insulate arround your slab and add the tubing circuits when building the shop, heat source and controls can be added later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 If you are going to be using a propane or charcoal forge the CO will kill you before you have time to worry as most scrubbers/filters do NOT deal with CO at all! Look into heat exchangers. Some factories will have the furnace shrouded with a negative pressure system and dedicated make up air so you don't use the heated/cooled air around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 EPA regs will cost you big $$$ on your air scrubber, inspections and HazMat for disposal of what it collects. We can get by with out one in many cases, but If we install one they are on top of it. found that out when we talked about installing a scrubber at local groups shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 If you control your airflow from the clean to the less clean areas, so it is one way airflow, you may be able to improve your air and workspace cleanliness as you maintain ventilation. Sounds like you are putting in a rather large shop. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 RIght now the shop is 600sq feet. I'm thinking the first floor will be at minimum 1200 sq feet and there is a second story for paint/airbrush, shipping and design. Having an air monitor for CO is probably the best idea in the thread. That way if I'm doing something wrong or not enough I'll know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Has anyone here installed a heat recovery air exchanger and if so how well did it work? The solar panel idea that Ben mentioned is pretty cool but i'm afraid it will detract from the outside archetecture and look i'm going for if I have a giant 8x8 panel on my southern face. I may be using existing concrete so no real way to put heating in that and I'm not sure if you can put radiant heat into concrete flooring? Sounds like that could be more problems than it's worth. I'm guessing that if I do some extreme insulation in the shop walls (which I am planning) than running a good size intake and outake fan would probably do little to actually change the overall interior temperature similar to how in massachusetts my basement shop wouldn't get super cold even when I brought in winter air due to the millions of tons of earth insulation all around me. It will generally only be me, just one person, so I am not looking at an enormous amount of fumes. I'd like to keep my forge mobile so I can move it anywhere in the shop or even pull it outside (it's on wheels). Thus the idea of incorporating some sort of exhaust system integral to the rafters/ceiling. This way anything that rises is going to be sucked out. Then bring in my fresh air at a lower point, perhaps window height or lower. That way my airflow would be from low to high instead of trying to pull from one side of the shop laterally to the other side of the shop. Wouldn't this be a better way? In my old shop I had the basement storm windows and a fan in each window and I got an amazing amount of intake and outtake. Since the windows were at ceiling height anything that rose in the way of fumes was pushed and sucked right out. If anyone has any links or pics to people who have setup any systems I'd love to seem them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Sorry but it wasn't the *insulation* that the earth supplied it was thermal mass. Super insulating your shop and then bringing in cold air is how you build a cold storage room! (or in the summer a hot box) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Sorry but it wasn't the *insulation* that the earth supplied it was thermal mass. Super insulating your shop and then bringing in cold air is how you build a cold storage room! (or in the summer a hot box) So what your saying is an air exchanger isn't just a good idea, it's practically mandatory if I don't want to die of heat in the summer and freeze in the winter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Sort of. What I said is more like: if you super insulate your shop you are more like making a thermos bottle. You put hot stuff in it it will stay hot, you put cold stuff in it it will stay cold. You need to control the temperature of what's coming in. if you are exhausting air---always a good idea in a smithy *unless* you are using an induction forge----it behooves you to rob the correct temperature from it to moderated the incoming temps. Ways around this for the winter include in-floor heating---I have friends who built a rastra house with in floor heating. They use a small apartment sized water heater to produce the warm water to heat their house. Another ray is to put in IR Radiant Heat that heats *you* but not the air. Lots of big places use this method. In the summer dehumidification may be important if you are in a damp clime. We can be quite comfortable out her in the 90's but with 6% relative humidity---you drink a lot of water though or you fall over after a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 You can put radiant heating on top of your existing slab. You will need to pour new concrete to capture the tubes. To insulate though you need to trench around the perimiter and insulate down a bit with spray foam etc. That is to keep the heat under the slab where it does you good. Solar water is a help for heating. I have done this on my house. May not be worth the cost of new concrete if your slab is already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben van Leeuwen Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The solar panel idea that Ben mentioned is pretty cool but i'm afraid it will detract from the outside archetecture and look i'm going for if I have a giant 8x8 panel on my southern face.. Fair enough, but I think you could make your own "panel" and incorporate it into the design without having it look like an 8x8 panel. I use the word panel loosely, because you can make it virtually any shape or size to work with the design of your shop. From what I have read, what I understand you are trying to do is create a super insulated, super tight shop with good air quality that is not effected by external conditions. This is a tall order to say the least. It has been a huge trend lately to build super tight homes, for example the R2000 homes. One of the big problems with these homes. especially at the onset was that the air quality inside was extremely poor (high humidity, contaminants, etc.). This was due largely in part to lack of ventilation. Once people started addressing the ventilation problem, air quality improved dramatically. You asked about Heat Recovery Ventilators. These are great in the winter, as you are exhausting warm air and drawing in cool air. However, they do nothing in the summer. (Heat goes from more to less, you can't transfer the coolness of the exhaust air to the warmth of the fresh air) In a blacksmith shop, I would never want to count on a HRV to exhaust the bad air (CO, fumes, etc.) simply due to the volume of air being exchanged. What I would like to do when I have the opportunity to build a bigger shop is to incorporate a dual ventilation system. Sort of a summer / winter split system. In the winter I would want to pull cold exterior air through a solar air heater to preheat the fresh air. In the summer I would want a different system. What I have seen is people burying a network of 4-6" PVC pipes in the ground before they pour the concrete floor. By drawing warm exterior air through these pipes in the summer, you benefit from the thermal mass of the earth which cools the fresh air. Basically a geothermal thing. Just my dream, doesn't have to be yours. I do think you are in for a challenge coming up with a well conditioned (temperature and air quality) shop space in a super tight building. The balance of having enough fresh air coming in, along with keeping it conditioned for temperature could be tricky. I look forward to following this thread to see what other people have to offer up. There are lots of good ideas out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Fair enough, but I think you could make your own "panel" and incorporate it into the design without having it look like an 8x8 panel. I use the word panel loosely, because you can make it virtually any shape or size to work with the design of your shop. I thought it actually had to be on the wall. lol.. talking to my neighbor he corrected me and said.. oh no this would be on the roof. That's not nearly as bad. But I would still want to do some custom look to make sure it fits with my design. From what I have read, what I understand you are trying to do is create a super insulated, super tight shop with good air quality that is not effected by external conditions. This is a tall order to say the least. That is the basic jist of it. Not to mention I will add acoustical cilps for sound dampening. But that is much much later down the road. First I just want to get it built and framed up. I've been looking at 2x6 walls with rigid 2" foam (silver backed) over the outside walls with OSB over that and housewrap over that. This is how a friend of mine did her home and she was incredibly impressed with it. I'm not sure if there is an even better way than this but if there is I'd love to hear it. It has been a huge trend lately to build super tight homes, for example the R2000 homes. One of the big problems with these homes. especially at the onset was that the air quality inside was extremely poor (high humidity, contaminants, etc.). This was due largely in part to lack of ventilation. Once people started addressing the ventilation problem, air quality improved dramatically. You asked about Heat Recovery Ventilators. These are great in the winter, as you are exhausting warm air and drawing in cool air. However, they do nothing in the summer. (Heat goes from more to less, you can't transfer the coolness of the exhaust air to the warmth of the fresh air) In a blacksmith shop, I would never want to count on a HRV to exhaust the bad air (CO, fumes, etc.) simply due to the volume of air being exchanged.That's what I thought but apparently these air exchangers do work in winter and in summer. Bringing warm air in during winter and cooler air in during the summer. http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?znfAction=ProductDetails&category=16&item=8100 or so these guys claim on their product. I think I agree though that using the air exchanger for the volume of fumes during forging I'm going to be making would not work. Yet for Tig welding, where the fumes are fairly minimal, I've even welded in closed up shops, I think the air exchanger could probably do some/most of it. What I would like to do when I have the opportunity to build a bigger shop is to incorporate a dual ventilation system. Sort of a summer / winter split system. In the winter I would want to pull cold exterior air through a solar air heater to preheat the fresh air. In the summer I would want a different system. What I have seen is people burying a network of 4-6" PVC pipes in the ground before they pour the concrete floor. By drawing warm exterior air through these pipes in the summer, you benefit from the thermal mass of the earth which cools the fresh air. Basically a geothermal thing. Just my dream, doesn't have to be yours.Sounds great in theory. Probably does a bang up job, I just don't know enough about it nor have enough confidence to explain it to some local contractor who's looking at me like i'm crazy lol. probably about 30% of my slab is the part that is alread poured. No real great way to put heating conduit in that. But I could put it in the entirety of the rest of the shop and I would imagine that would do a good deal. However I always thought that it was the walls and ceiling where you lost most of the heat. I always thought the concrete did fairly well to insulate as it has so much mass and is connected with deeper in the ground. I remember touching my polished concrete floors in winter and they really didn't seem all that cold. They are sealed with a sealer. For me it was mostly being overcome by having no insulation in the walls. With serious insulation in the walls. I could probably have a window open and a fan in it and my little 220V heater on and still stay warm and that's not doing anything else. But that would be bare minimum. While i'm building this place from the ground up I may as well incoperate one or more of these techniques (the exchanger, the solar heating, or in floor heating) I do think you are in for a challenge coming up with a well conditioned (temperature and air quality) shop space in a super tight building. The balance of having enough fresh air coming in, along with keeping it conditioned for temperature could be tricky. I look forward to following this thread to see what other people have to offer up. There are lots of good ideas out there.I guess worst case scenario I could do what I did back east in my basement. Just install a furnace with several drops and when I am welding/forging in the winter I just pull in lots of cold air and expel it out another side and let the thermostat blast heat when it starts dropping to much. Not the most efficient way to do things but worked well for me for a few years. Usually a few hours of doing that the heater would only cycle on a few times. Similar to in the summer. However I usually never got that hot in the summer even on scorching days so I didn't run the central air A/C. Maybe it was just the thermal mass of the earth holding the temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 It sound like you should put heating tubes in your slab. The cost of the tubing is so cheap to do now compared to later and the head is much better. I too am planning a 2200 sq ft shop and will have the heating tubes in the dirt under the slab. More thermal mass and not much chance of damaging the tubes if I drill anchors to mount equipment etc... I used these guys to help design the first system I did: http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/index.html r smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Yah how do you drill/mount to the floor once you have that tubing in it. I guess you can't unless you know exactly where everything is. Or you put it in the dirt. With it in the dirt do you have to worry about heaving your concrete. Seems like if you had something hot under there every winter that at times also gets cold that you have a greater chance of breaking your concrete and heaving it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 You can put in local, additional, fume extractors with some adjustment to them. This way you can place the extractor intake near your work so the fumes are removed with less mixing in of room air, so less air exchange required, so less heating is required. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I dont have to worry about heaving or snow in socal. B) I would not think it a problem if the slab is always warm. Do you get permafrost layer in the winter? If so I think your slab insulation needs to go down to it or below it. I have heard of people in snow country who did not insulate the outside of their slab and the snow would melt within 6 feet of the house- not the most efficient use of heat. :o The link I posted to is in Montana- he is very knowledgeable about cold weather radiant. Lots of info on his site. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 How do you insulate around the outside of the slab? How would I know if the slab that I already have poured is insulated? We don't get a lot of snow here.. because I'm right near the cove pallisades in oregon. About 2300 feet. I'm north of redmond oregon and I'm in one of the lowest spots in central oregon. Any lower and you have to head up towards madras and warm springs. So when we do get snow it's just a sprinkle.. sometimes a few inches and then it melts in a day or two. We do get cold though.. we can have 20dg days. So it can get colder than a you know what. lol Breaking up a 600sq foot slab to repour it though woudl seem like a huge waste.. espcecially since I spent a whole month on my hands and knees sanding the slab with a belt sander and then hundreds more caulking the joints with an epoxy and then sealing it all with two different sealers. Ughh.. I guess I could always leave that area un-heated and just heat the other 2-3's. I think a mixture of things would be great to keep it heated. Heat is probably more important that cold. You can survive without A/C.. it stinks and can be miserable in a heatwave... but you can't make it through the winter without heat. Trying to pick up a piece of metal that is cold soaked in a shop that is 20dgs.. well that pretty much halts all progress. Thanks for your help guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 To insulate the slab on my existing house I had to dig a trench around the house 22" deep to expose the outside of the footing and use closed cell spray foam and blueboard where the forms were, where the blueboard came out of the ground is galv metal to protect it. Then backfill. There were other things going in some of the trench as well- underground downspout pipes, conduits for electrical, and water pipes. In you case I would just heat the new slab but insulate the old one as well. Much easier to insulate when poring concrete than after. The blueboard is one side of the form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Frosty did an in slab heat job on his smithy as I remember---Got your ears on Frosty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 Don't they also sometimes use foam board under the slab before they pour? or is it just around the outside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Sometimes. I have heard that flat insulation is helpful only for about 4' from the edges, waste to put it out in the middle, this is with the footings insulated as well. If you are trying to get maximum thermal mass you also want to heat some of the dirt below the slab. The heat can only go back up if contained on the sides. Takes longer to heat it up initially but it also takes a long time to cool down. I will try to capture some heat from my forge exhaust to help keep the slab warm. Also to heat my slab will be solar panels and a wood stove with a boiler unit. You need to read the info on the link I sent, there are others as well with good info on websites but I think that one is best/most info. Here it is again: http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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