Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Anyone have any good specific book reccomendations for creating pole arms? Also a bonus if you have any great video links. Thanks a bunch, Av Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Most of them were real wrought iron with steeled edges and points. Will you be making them that way or do you plan to use modern steels and monolithic construction? I don't recall seeing *any* books on making them; closest would probably be axe making combined with museum catalogs and personal examination---particularly of the ones *NOT* on display as "weathered" examples will show how they were constructed---flow of the wrought iron, welds, etc where "shiny" ones just look shiny... One tip for modern replication is that old windmill sucker rods were often wood with iron/steel joints, the metal joints having long straps that go down the wooden shafts. Cutting off the socket/threaded section allows you to weld the "head" to a premade set of mounting straps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 No I plan on using modern steels and monolithic construction. I've noticed lots of those long straps but trying to find any construction notes on how pole arms are actually assemebled has been difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Back in the day they did a *LOT* of forge welding of component pieces together to get some of the oddball shapes. Today full penetration arc or gas welding would be used. (or using powerhammers and presses you can do a lot of shaping from a solid mass) is there a specific type you are trying to replicate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 I was noticing just that (the really odd shapes) are forge welded together. I'm specifically interested in military forks and tridents. I'm a little unsure on ways to make them. I would guess that originally they took a piece of round bar and forged a W shape out of it (or rather UU shape if you will) and then probably thinned out or drawed out the center to make the center tine the same as the sides. However, there probably is a better way to do it especially for wide flat tines. Forge welding three pieces together seems like a pain. Any thoughts on that. How difficult is it to forge one giant flat blade mass and then go back and cut it out when finished? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 1 round bar is not generally expected before the use of the rolling mill as it's a pain to forge and can have interior cracking from being forged round. So most likely forged from sq and then rounded Forge welding 3 pieces together is really pretty easy and forge welding was done a LOT back in the real wrought iron days as it welds much easier and nicer than modern steel does---*IF* you get it hot enough! Welding temp for Wrought Iron is often above burning temp for mild steel. Welding up a big mass and then cutting parts away is much less likely back then when welding up pieces could have the same result. I do admit I've been thinking of trying to do a flanged mace by taking a sheet of wrought iron and folding it and welding the folds and then curving it into a tube with the folds sticking out and then lapping and welding the edges and then carving the folds into Gothic flanges---but I doubt they would have done it that way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 I guess mastering forging spears is a grea starting place and then practice forge welding them together. Making a fork seems rather straight foward. Take your tool steel and bend it and forge the tines. But when you get to 3 tines, one way or another you have to forge weld. Does anyone know of really good books specifically on spears and pole-type weapons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 Back in the day they did a *LOT* of forge welding of component pieces together to get some of the oddball shapes. Today full penetration arc or gas welding would be used. (or using powerhammers and presses you can do a lot of shaping from a solid mass) is there a specific type you are trying to replicate? Can you give me an idea how presses are used to shape solid masses? Is it literally just put in hot steel into the press and use a hydraulic jack or is there much more to it than that and what is the advantage of a press over hammering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 sorry mate, it aint that simple! you need a heap more pressure than a little jack can put out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 The Halberd and Other European Polearms, 1300-1650 George Snook Museum Restoration Service, 1998 andHafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between 1200 and 1650 (History of Warfare 31) (History of Warfare (Brill)) by John WaldmanAs to hydraulic presses..youtube has many many videos of those.Here is one from me:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FypNcOI96Tgit is a 45 ton moving at 0.6 inches per second.Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 To forge with a press you need *speed* as well as pressure; lots of information out there on home built presses for knifemaking but they all require a pretty hefty hydraulic pump and a STOUT press frame. Advantages of presses is controlability. Disadvantages can be slowness with the dies sucking heat out of the mass when in contact. Also if you blow a hydraulic line---not all hydraulic fluids are non-burning... You can use a lot of the same types of top tools in a press that you can on the anvil---Just make sure they are oriented so that they don't get spit out at you at high speeds. As they will get buried in the hot mass S7 and H-13 is highly suggested for tooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiack Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I guess mastering forging spears is a grea starting place and then practice forge welding them together. Making a fork seems rather straight foward. Take your tool steel and bend it and forge the tines. But when you get to 3 tines, one way or another you have to forge weld. Does anyone know of really good books specifically on spears and pole-type weapons? The Aug 2012 Saltfork newsletter shows how to make a 4 tine hay fork without welding. I think something similar could be done for 3 tines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 nicely done ric! someone had to find one! and now i am considering aquiring said book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 The Aug 2012 Saltfork newsletter shows how to make a 4 tine hay fork without welding. I think something similar could be done for 3 tines. Thanks for the tip.. I found the pages. ^_____^ :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 The Halberd and Other European Polearms, 1300-1650 George Snook Museum Restoration Service, 1998 andHafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between 1200 and 1650 (History of Warfare 31) (History of Warfare (Brill)) by John WaldmanAs to hydraulic presses..youtube has many many videos of those.Here is one from me:it is a 45 ton moving at 0.6 inches per second.Ric I would die to peak in those books. The second one I would probably have to take a loan against. At 161$ that is probably the most expensive book I've ever had an interest in purchasing. When are presses used in halberd making? I thought they were used in making damascus and other pattern welded steel but beyond that I don't know much about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 The Aug 2012 Saltfork newsletter shows how to make a 4 tine hay fork without welding. I think something similar could be done for 3 tines. Looking over that technique.. it's actually an obvious and rather simplistic way to do it, but you wouldn't think of it right off hand. Interesting that after the first 2 bends you actually almost have a jewelers double bick stake. What actually is preferred for the strongest edge/blade.. a single piece of metal that has been bent a lot into tines or three individual pieces that have been carefully forge welded? Which technique is the better way and less likely to break? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiack Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I thought the same thing, it is obvious once you see it but it would not have occurred to me without having scene it first. I think made from a single piece would be strongest but would like to hear from the more experienced along with an explanation as to why. My inclination it that any time a weld is made there is the possibility for less than 100% fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 I wonder why they forge welded a lot of those odd shapes on halberds in medieval times. Probably due to no bandsaw and no drill lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcc Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I don't know a lot about weapons, but I did forge a 4 tine pitchfork a few weeks back. I faggot welded the four rods together and hammered it out. After which I cut a piece of black iron pipe, drifted it and hammered the welded end of the rods into the iron pipe and forge welded it all together. Then I just spread the un-welded end of the bundle into the tines. I don't know about doing it with higher carbon steel, but it worked good and was easy enough for me to do it at my skill level(which isn't high by any means). Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Anyone ever have any idea on whether forge welding is stronger or weaker than one piece? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Anyone ever have any idea on whether forge welding is stronger or weaker than one piece? Anyone ever have any idea on whether forge welding is stronger or weaker than one piece? Forge welding is likely to be the less strong method... BUT... the answer is not simple. Perfectly done there should be no discernible advantage to either method. Either method done poorly could easily produce a weak result. Either method done excellently will surely produce excellent results. Skill is the KEY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 They used to forge weld the main drive shafts for warships out of pieces of wrought iron; so it can be pretty strong. But like *any* weld if done wrong it's weaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 That seems to make sense. I suppose in modern welding though your combining additives from rods so that's not a good correlation. Those welds could be in fact stronger due to the rods. But in forge welding I can understand where you're coming from. The weld is only as good as the welder ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tran Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 You might like this, if nothing else it has a lot of pictures. 'Eyewitness Knight' written by Christopher Gravett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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