female_blacksmith Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 What can I do ? I have finished my piece of work, wire brushed it including using a twisted cup brush on an angle grinder to remove as much scale as possible, brought it to a black heat and applied a wax finish. The colour is perfect but, I can still see too much scale for my liking. What can I try next to rectify this situation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 i use a tumbler... it can be hard on delicate stuff but it does remove scale and leave a smoother finish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 without seeing the size of the piece, its hard to give good advice. Sometime I use a rose bud to "burn off" the scale. A picture would be great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Sanding, grinding, vinegar, scraping, filing, more heat, more hammering, lots of options depending on the exact problem and desired results. Show us what you are trying to do and we can give you specific advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
female_blacksmith Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Hi all, here is a couple of pictures that I hope on zoom will show my problem with scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
female_blacksmith Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Thank you all for your comments so far. Because I have fully assembled my piece and I have just a very small opening to my gas propane forge I will not be able to heat it up back in there. I do have oxy-acetyline though. Another question: As I do not have anything large enough to immerse my piece in white vinegar, could I wrap it in plastic having first sprayed it in vinegar, and wire brush it and apply more vinegar over a couple of days, presumably, I have to burn off the wax first ? Many, many thanks for all your help ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 You can use a towel or such like soaked in vinegar to treat larger surfaces... HOWEVER there is no scale on that horse! There are the tracks or print of scale present... but you cannot get any more scale off because you have already removed it all! I like your surfaces and find it MUCH more attractive than smooth shiny steel! You could be more diligent about brushing scale off as you remove the iron from your forge to minimize those scale tracks on future projects (also keep your anvil swept clean). For the present you will have to file, grind, peen, scrape, sand or blast to get any smoother, though I do not recommend it... those surfaces look great to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
female_blacksmith Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Thank you very much for that. The towel idea soaked in vinegar is a great solution for me. Is there any reason for white as opposed to brown vinegar being used ? I must admit I do not want smooth shiny steel so your comments on tracks or print of scale on show underneath the wax is very reassuring. Out of interest do you apply cold wax a few times to build up layers. I have a great humidity problem here so rust developing quickly is a real problem. I appear to get much more stubborn scale using gas propane than an open fire so will definitely wire brush more vigorously in future. Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Hi Denise, Knew you could manage to get this posted, Brown vineger will leave a stain, If you have a humidity problem, I would tend to use a clear acrylic lacquer, the ones in aerosol cans used to seal metallic paint finishes on motor vehicles are ideal and should be easy to access, 2 or more coats at least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 hi denise - i LOVE your horse head, and i think like some others have said - the surface is part of what makes it so beautiful - would be gutted to see it all pollished and smooth.... i think its really fabulous like that :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Wax by itself is not a very good rustproofing treatment. I tend to use cross-linking acrylics and waterborne polyurethanes on pieces that I want to be more durably finished. I put about 7 coats applied to warm metal on outdoor items. Usually about 5 of acrylics and 2 topcoats of waterborne polyurethane. You can see some of this treatment in my thread "Spartan Travel Trailer Restoration" in the "Member Projects" section. These examples have had a bit of Golden's "Iridescent Bronze" Acrylic and burnt umber pigment added to give a bronzed look. I have found this combination of really tough acrylics and polyurethane topcoats to be pretty darn tough and durable in most conditions... I have used them for many kitchen cabinet finish repairs and refinishes and they get pretty tough testing there. They usually far outlast the factory applied finishes even on the highest end cabinet brands. As with any finishes excellent durability and rust/water resistance are only achieved with numerous coats of film thickness. I often tell the story of the British flytyer who made traditional salmon flies and was asked at an exhibition for the secret of the finishes on his fly heads. Suspecting that his admirer had the wrong idea about how to get such finishes he asked the man how many coats of finish he was applying to HIS flies. The answer was 4 to 5 coats. "Well there is your problem" the exhibitor answered "these flies have from 32 to 48 coats on their heads"... the questioner went away in disbelief thinking that the exhibitor was just reluctant to share his "secret" finish recipes... in fact the whole truth was right there before him... many thin coats built to a fine finish that cannot be duplicated by shortcut methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Here, Here, Bigfoot....Now you went and let the cat out of the bag ! People usually don't get it.....thats the secret..... ( to time consuming for most )..... Patients is the key. Last year I coated a piece with poly only, just to see what the northeast winter would do to it, and this year wasn't as bad as I hoped it would be... ( and I'm kind of glad it wasn't... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
female_blacksmith Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Please excuse my ignorance Bigfoot but, I am not familiar with the term ' cross linking ' are all acrylics cross linking and all polyurethane waterborne ? I would never have thought of combining the two acrylic/polyurethane together so will try that and increase the number of coats on my work, humidity is 60-80 % most of the time here. I liked your story on the British flytyer. I used to think I put on too many applications ! Great idea to start finishes as another topic John B and I did manage to ' post ' lol.. Thank you to every one that has replied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Just asking Bigfoot. I was always under the impression that Polyurethanes shouldn't be used for exterior finishes because in the long term polymers are broken down by the ultraviolet sun rays to monomers thus degrading the finish. I know these chemical compounds are constantly changing and this may no longer be true. So I was just wondering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Marine spar poly...made for outside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I sometimes use a large plastic trash can with lid that you find at the Home Depot, Lowes, Ollies and the like, to take the trash to the curb. For items that large I use swimming pool clorine instead of vinegar. It's cheaper. It comes in small pellets or cakes. The granular type disolves easier. Leave the item in for about 8 hours and it's clean. I wash it off and use dish detergent to neutralize and clean it. I then wire wheel with a cup brush to bring the finish from dull to shiney and then clear spray with laquer. 2 light coats is better than one heavy one. There are now some new spray paints that hold up well outside. Check the other posts on clear coat paints on IFI for that info. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Decided to google my own query. Exterior use of polyurethane varnish may be problematic due to its susceptibility to deterioration through ultra-violet (UV) light exposure. All clear or translucent varnishes, and indeed allfilm-polymer coatings (i.e., paint, stain, epoxy, synthetic plastic, etc.) are susceptible to this damage in varying degrees. Pigments in paints and stains protect against UV damage, while UV-absorbers are added to polyurethane and other varnishes (in particular "spar" varnish) to work against UV damage. Polyurethanes are typically the most resistant to water exposure, high humidity, temperature extremes, and fungus or mildew, which also adversely affect varnish and paint performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 There are finishes, even clear ones, that hold up to uv and other external conditions very well. Seems too that a lot of them are water based and made for metal. Permalac is supposed to be excellent, though expensive, but if it gets the job done and you don't have to repaint the item that saves you time and money. I'm testing one now http://www.eastwood....SRCCODE=1SE0756 I forged out a pineapple texture on a piece if sheet metal and only wire wheeled it before painting it with KBS DiamondFinish ClearCoat. I hung it on the sunny side of my shop back in November and it looks as good as the first day. I had also used Por-15, also an automotive paint for restorations and it has held up for over 9 years, plus this is totally out in the open and it was painted over aluminum foil, on the Hershey Kisses. This picture was in 2010, but last summer it looked just as good. BTW, the color paint finish is also a waterbased paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 It is TRUE that the whole subject is much more complex than I have allowed here. Baby steps are neccessary! If I were to launch into the most technical of explanations and all of the permutations that can be considered in the choices of finishes I would lose my audience here in seconds! Even on professional painting forums I cannot delve into the complexities of coatings chemistry too deeply without causing more confusion than illumination. I DO know intimately about ALL of the issues you are concerned with and many more besides... but the discussions can easily get way beyond interesting and useful... so I must restrain myself. Here I give you something concrete and expertly tested over years in use in many applications that you can take home and use immediately (without spending years of study to catch up to me): On the door handles pictured in my "Spartan Travel Trailer Restoration" thread in the "Member Projects" section I used "Breakthrough" satin clear by Vanex tinted with a bit of burnt umber pigment and a dab of Golden's Iridescent Bronze (Fine) acrylic for the metallic look and applied about 5 coats of this in a wipe on manner to warmed metal so that by the time I finished one end I could flip it and finish the other without messing up the first end. Hairdryer or radiator makes a good heat source... don't get it too hot to handle. For the final 3 coats I used a waterborne poly finish called Hydrogold by Star which is now marketed as "Finish Up" and sold by Mohawk finishes (their line is mostly finish repair supplies). A waterborne polyurethane is a bit different than a standard oil-base poly. The waterbornes are basically gelled globules of oil based resins which are then suspended in water (a LITTLE more complex than this in real life but this is the basic version). The water quickly evaporates from the applied coating and the semi-dried globules of oil-based finish then clump together to form the film. This particular product is exceptional in performance and ULTRA quick drying. I have found that when used in combination with the "Breakthrough" acrylic the resulting finish is a hybrid that is tougher than either finish alone... and that's saying something as each of these finishes are remarkably tough on their own! The "Finish Up" is also a wipe on applied product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 The key requirement for any finish is the correct preperation prior to applying a finish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
female_blacksmith Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Wow, thank you to all of the replys above. yes some are a little too advanced for me to digest at this stage but very grateful none the less. It was a revelation to know I could wipe on my finish coats after thorough preparation of course, always thought they had to be sprayed or painted, and I shall have to get pen and paper to write down the makes of paint and see where I can get them from. I like the idea of the trash can with chlorine for larger pieces Randy since I buy my vinegar from the supermarket in small bottles and definitely not economical ! Love the paint colours and design of the ' garden entrance ' you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 A chemical sold as pool supplies is called ph down and is sodium bisulphate which is the active ingredient in Sparex pickle solution. I am thinking that might be what Randy is referring to? Vinegar and salt solutions are also used and may be diluted with water. Alum dissolved in water is also used as an inexpensive pickle solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 That's it, Vanex Breakthrough paint. That's what I used on the entranceway except for the kisses. I heard someone else bought them out, but there are a lot of companies today that have a water base paint for metal. Funny, when I first got info from Vanex they had a picture of an iron gate and a quote from Tom Joyce on how he liked it. Of course it was his gate. We also used it on a gate restoration in the historic district of Philadelphia and it still looks great after many years. I've used both the pool chlorine and the low ph powders with equal results. Cheap and good results with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_m Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The key requirement for any finish is the correct preperation prior to applying a finish It's amazing how many people don't realize this. Most paint/clearcoat/whatever has detailed surface prep instructions on the container, but they often go ignored. It only makes sense to follow the manufacturer's recommendations, you've already bought their product and it's in their best interest to have it work as well as possible so that you'll buy more. Removing loose scale and rust is obvious, but thoroughly degreasing with acetone or something similar is just as important. Wire wheels and flap discs are generally contaminated with grease unless brand new (just like how you don't use ones for stainless on other steels), so using them as a final surface prep doesn't cut it. I always wipe with acetone immediately before I put any paint or clearcoat on things. Your fingerprints and your gloves are greasy, and if you cleaned something yesterday and want to coat it today, there's going to be a very fine layer of dust on it if it's sitting in your shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
female_blacksmith Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Does this mean I can not put on a hot wax finish and clear coat it afterwards ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.