Connecting uprights/palings to hand rail

[John-S]

I searched a bit for a solution to this, but haven't found it. Maybe I'm not using the correct terminology.

Quick backgound: I've been doing this for a very long time as a sometime hobby and occasional part time job. Mostly I've done small historical reproductions. This project is the second largest thing I've ever done both in complexity and plain physical size. So, I'm a very experienced novice... I've been a beginner for 30 years...

I'm building a set of railings to extend from existing railings around a porch. I've done one side but it was a lot of awkward work and didn't come out as well as I'd like. Now I'm asking you folks for help as a poor attempt at working smarter.

The railing is pretty simple, it is about 28" high, 30" long. There are palings or uprights or whatever you call them every 4.5 inches and every other one is twisted. The top rail needs to be smooth as a hand grip, and the bottom has to be about 2.5 inches from the ground.

The problem is that top connection. Originally I thought I'd punch square holes part way through the top rail, insert the uprights, then hit them from the side to lock them / shrink them in. I hadn't accounted for how awkward something that size can be once it is partly assembled... What I wound up doing was not good blacksmithing, but worked, I drilled, countersunk, and tapped holes down through the top, put in screws, and then filed them off smooth on top. This works, but there has to be a better way.

I've thought of two other ways, one is to have a friend arc weld them in place and then clean them up. Very non-traditional, but probably will work. The other is a thing I saw on an old building here in town where they had bent the uprights at 90 degrees on both ends and riveted them in place. That would work great, but gives a different look than the existing stuff.

I keep thinking there must be someway to use the uprights themselves as rivets or to shrink them in place, or.... I can't get over the idea that somebody must know the "right" way to do this... ;-) I sure don't.

Any suggestions very much appreciated.

John

[knots]

Use a small channel with the flanges turned up below the rail cap and down for the bottom rail. Drill or punch holes tor the pickets in these channels. Make the pickets a bit longer so that you can stick them through the channel from the flat side. Weld the pickets from the inside between the upturned flanges of the small channel. This will make all of the welds concealed when you cap it with the railing.

Edit: John B has it right (below) for railings that need to historically correct, and/or high end iron work where cost and time are not a real factor. The method given above is more or less standard fabrication tecnique for railings where the owner doesn't have the budget to pay for all of that traditional joinery and yet exposed welds need to be avoided.

[John B]

You don't say how you are currently securing the bottom rail, but you appear to be on the right track except with part way punching and the shrinking fitting of the upright

If this is only going to be 30" long sections, punch rails through, tenon the uprights, and then rivet. when all complete, rivet ehm toghether.

Bob punch to countersink the top of the top rail, and after rivetting them in position, file off excess (which should be minimal if you cut off the tenons to the right length prior to fitting)

Edited February 13, 2012 by John B

[Randy]

Fabrication wise it's like Knots said, use channel and either tenon the uprights and peen over in the channel or plug weld to the channel. Then the top or cap rail can be welded to the channel either with holes in the channel and plug welded or along the edge of the channel as shown. The drawing is a side section. That should match your existing railing.

[pkrankow]

If you need a horizontal tenon riveting station, un-mount your heaviest post vise (or a heavy post vise, say over 50#) and clamp that to the bar you are riveting to provide resisting mass. This way you can work the whole kit flat, level and fully supported on a work bench. Use soft jaws and spacers if necessary.

Phil

[John-S]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'm going to try John-B's approach since it is very similar to what I did the first time but sounds like it will work better. I do have a followup question though...

I did attach the bottom as described,. I didn't do that on top, in part to avoid rivet heads there, but mostly because I couldn't figure out a good way to tenon and rivet both ends. I drove the tenon into a kind of header die or monkey tool for the bottom, by striking it on top... I also riveted against the top of each upright as well.

So, how do I tenon and rivet both ends without destroying the second end? (I thought of assembling all the bottoms then all the tops, but the railing becomes too awkward to get into the fire and back to the anvil etc. )

Thanks again!

[bigfootnampa]

Ideally you would rivet both ends at once... forming a head on each end as you go. Otherwise you could use a bolster or shaped bottom tool to protect the first head. Either way you'd do the filing as a last step, after the heads are completed on both ends. If using a torch to heat the tenons it should be fairly easy as the far end would be cold and MUCH less affected by the forging forces. I'd think that you could do both ends cold too though, if you'd rather not use a torch. Putting the whole assembly into the fire severely limits your project size!

[John B]

Various ways to accomplish this, as its only a relatively small panel, rivet the bottom rail and uprights in first This could be done by holding each upright in the vise and rivetting them ready to assemble the top rail to,

or you could stand the assembly on a swage block/bolster with the top rail in position and rivet up the bottom rail, then switch it over and rivet the top rail on (Countersink prior to assembly to allow filing flush) By standing it on the swage block or bolster plate, this will give a solid base for rivetting.

Or you could do as Phil K suggests and use a leg vice as an anchor/bucking mechanism to allow rivetting, see here for an explanatory picture,http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%206_tcm2-18925.pdf Lesson 32 from item E on is helpful, on page 92 item M specifically shows use of leg vice, lots of other tips for you there too. Good luck with it, looking forward to seeing pics of finished item.

[ThomasPowers]

When I had to do a bunch of sq tenons I rigged up my screw press with a stop block the correct size and whapped them out hot easily and speedily. I did need to dress the junction with a monkey tool that I made from a deep wall socket the correct drive size.

Torch heating the tenon and riveting it in and then going back and dressing them should work and be historically OK. Countersinking the holes a bit on the top helps too.

[Alan Evans]

So, how do I tenon and rivet both ends without destroying the second end? (I thought of assembling all the bottoms then all the tops, but the railing becomes too awkward to get into the fire and back to the anvil etc. )

Thanks again!

Your problem is that you tried to form the tenon by just thumping the baluster into a monkey tool from the outset. At no time do you have to hit the end of the baluster.

You tenon both ends by forging them from the side in swage tools, truing up the shoulder with a monkey tool or file. In fact you could just form them with a file any way, you hardly need any shoulder. To true up the shoulder you can just hold the baluster against your thigh and poke the tenon into a monkey tool laying on the anvil then hit the end of the monkey tool.