fireplace set

[John B]

. I've had some trouble getting to long of a bar heat and ending up with as much bar bending as upsetting. Spears.

You can always reduce this heated length by elevating the handling end of the stock (if you are using a bottom blast forge) or if you are using a side blast poke the metal being heated from the front of the hearth, in line with the tuyere rather than at 90 degrees to the tuyere, this way you get a shorter heat at the end of the bar

Or you could just get the old watering can/gubbins/thingy and cool where the 'excess' heat is

[FieryFurnace]

You can always reduce this heated length by elevating the handling end of the stock (if you are using a bottom blast forge) or if you are using a side blast poke the metal being heated from the front of the hearth, in line with the tuyere rather than at 90 degrees to the tuyere, this way you get a shorter heat at the end of the bar

Or you could just get the old watering can/gubbins/thingy and cool where the 'excess' heat is

Yea that's what I do with bars to get an upset heat. Poke in deep!

Jake, are we talking theory here or not? I mean in my case shown in the pictures, greater force equalled a greater upset that went deaper in the bar. The items that took the lesser force have a much more abrupt upset.

Well actually to be correctly experiemented with, the use of greater and lesser force would need to be applied to the same size stock material to prove a theory.

So I suppose that throws it back into the theory! LOL It would be an interesting topic for people to do experiements in the same size stocks and to post their results though. :D

[jeremy k]

Dave - you are right in that the heavier blows will upset in further and the lighter blows tend to mushroom the end, Although, Jake is right on by saying the upset will happen the most at the hottest area whether being at the end or in the middle of a bar - hot metal moves first.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks,Jeremy,that clears things up a little.

Dave,i'm sorry,i express meself often in a confusing manner(my thinking process is a confused and confusing can of worms).Of course you're absolutely right in that a stronger blow,under given heat,will produce relatively bigger upset.Actually,even in general,upsetting requires a maximally heavy blows.

In that is a part of my prejudice against upsetting in a vise:A vise,most commonly,is mounted at elbow height.
The radius of swing being what it is,the work chucked in a vise does not lend itself to being struck heavily in a convenient manner.

I do at times end up striking at something in the vise,and have to mount an overturned bucket to do so with any authority(which looks and feels even more ridiculous than it sounds ).
But again,it's just me! :P

[beth]

jake - bizarre! i have to mount buckets, as you say to hit things in my vice. i dont think there is anything out of the ordinary in that course of action or bits of H section steel which i seem to have lots of - would like a proper stable reliable Step for this job really tho i have terroible trouble upsetting things though, prob combination of not hitting hard enough, not heating hot enough and in the right place and lack of determinde practice.............

[jake pogrebinsky]

Why,Beth,a proper Englishwoman such as yourself,mounted atop a bucket?!How unseemleah!

There's a principle difference between the level that the tools are mounted at.The machinists vise,for example,is set at exactly the elbow height,for the proper motion necessary for flat-filing to take place.
Martial arts-like,the Stance,in all trades' actions,is crucially important.

If one is ever lucky enough to come across a post-vise minus it's post(to amputate one is a Mortal Sin,but worse things are known to've been done...),an incredibly handy tool can be made:
A mount can be forged for it that,instead of one that mounts to a flat bench,as is normal,has a hook with a downward-pointing part of it shaped to go into the hardy hole.
Such a vise is picked up and quickly dropped onto the anvil,there secure from turning and all other wasteful motions,and THEN,all sorts of beating upon it can take place.With the hammer-arm properly extended at the end of the stroke.
Afterwards,it's just easily lifts out,of course.
I've dreamed of such a device for years,but absolutely cannot geld any of my 3 post-vises... :blink:

[beth]

to geld a post vice! thats fantastic - i think you should just for an excuse to use that turn of phrase more often!! yeah that sounds useful - and as you knwo ive no problem with butchering things if you want it badly enough..... :)

[FieryFurnace]

For big hammering, I do agree the standard mounted post vise is too high! (Oh and BTW I *uhhhehmmm cough cough* amputated mine! It was a long time ago and I would come up with a different solution now. I've got a bit of a leg but it doesn't hit the ground. It's supported by a good bit of metal though and very solid.) For the 1 pound ball pein, double hammering method, the hieght does not seem to be an issue for me.

Take one of those vises and bury it. Wrap the leg in a pipe so it doesn't rust away.


Ok the poker: it's done but no pictures yet. I went with the much more useful hook style. I'll try to get pictures later today. I'm working on helping dad set up his side of the shop and I need to rake and bail hay today, so I probably won't get any more progress until next week. I've got to make a pretty big steel run soon and so I can get the chord for wrapping the hooks. I am deciding against a collar just becuase it will be risky for me to try irregularly shaped collars. I have done square collars before and feel pretty confident with them but with my recent failure in round collars I don't want to try a roundish-triangle shaped collar for the first time on an actual piece. LOL

over and out

[petere76]

Hey Dave,

I did a tool holder last year and used traditional joinery. I did plug weld the base plate (heavy) but its hidden and did not take away from the balance or the look of the piece. I think the height becomes an issue with long tools (40 + in) because if you widen the base to keep the unit steady the piece will sometimes seem off balance.

Always something to consider for future projects because the traditional look of riveted and tenon joinery is always well recieved.

Great job on your piece, it looks fine.

Peter

[FieryFurnace]

Nice approach Mr Peter.

[FieryFurnace]

Latest:



Test piece for handle. 1/2" square forged to octagon. Ditched that idea but here is the test piece anyway.



Mr. John was correct that the reverse scoll for hooks was a bad idea. Taking the tool straight off will result in a tumble. The tool has to be picked up and pulled out. To make this easier I did an open handle. I kept it simple here so I would not add to the complex appearence of the top as compared to the bottom.


A more usefull poker end.


The material was 1/2" round. The straight sections are hammered cold under the flat dies in the power hammer. Gives just a bit of forged texture to them. That will really come out when I sand.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Dave,that is an improvement.You know,it's actually quite easy-just find what type of tasks one(the customer,presumably) needs the poker for.

I find it useful to drag the wood towards me.That requires a sharp point at a 90 deg to the axis(+a tiny bit,towards you).
Also,it's nice to rifle through the old ashes for a possible live amber.That's very like raking,and for that what you've forged is handy.
Sometimes,flipping the log over another is useful,ditto,what you have will work for that.
There may be other views on that,and THAT's what should,in a perfect world,determine the poker shape(and that of the handle,too).

[FieryFurnace]

If used properly, this type of poker can be used for pushing, pulling, poking, lifting, or turning. I use this type of poker for our stove. (We heat with wood 100%.)

I went to my steel supplier today to get some standard stock pieces. I also picked up a 4'x7' piece of 1/4" plate for my new welding/assembly table. The first thing on my list was 1/8" round for the wrapping on the stand. Somehow I skipped over that and didn't get any. I would use 1/4" round, but the little hand-held torch I have isn't going to heat it up. Wish I could find an O/A rig!

[Don A]

I'm in the process of piecing together an Oxy/Propane rig.

You might want to look into that, unless you want to eventually use the torch for welding (I'll leave that to Mr. Lincoln).

For cutting and isolated heating, propane looks like a more affordable solution.

I've found a good deal on some 100lb propane tanks on CL, but in a pinch you could use the one off of a gas grill. Also, it would be handy having one gas for the torch and the forge (if a gas forge ever becomes a reality).

A good vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2amO0T3vkQ

[FieryFurnace]

I have a Harbour Freight heavy duty O/A cutting torch, new regulators, and hose. (The most expensive one HF sells. Got it in a trade for much less than the $250 they sell it for.) Anyway, no tanks though! I've been looking at sets on craigs that have the tanks but very few people have ownership papers on their tanks and they aren't willing to get the. I've found a company that will fill any size tanks but they have to have ownership papers. It's been a fruitless search thus far.

I think I saw that add you are talking about. I wouldn't mind doing oxy propane instead of oxy acetalline. So long as it cuts and heats.

I get an amish guy to do all of my welding....."Mr Miller." He says he's 175! ;)

[Don A]

All you need is a "T" rated hose (all gas) and propane specific tips and you should be good to go with the set-up you already have.

Then you only need an oxygen bottle and a standard propane tank.

I gleaned some good info here:

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/24022-oxypropane-set-up/

Also, Google "acetylene to propane conversion" and you'll come up with some good stuff.

[FieryFurnace]

Something that would heat better would have been really handy this afternoon when I wrapped about 8 feet of 1/8" stock around this fireplace set. Good grief! This took forever!

It took forever, but I am reasonably pleased with the results of the wrapping. (Maybe next time it will be all traditional!)




I also made the shovel today.




The broom handle was completed today and will be sent off to a broom maker soon.

It's time to start sanding and finishing. :D

[FieryFurnace]

Here is a video of the upsetting in the vise!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqtQTLa_cxg&feature=channel_video_title

[pkrankow]

Well, WOW. That puts a upset in quick.

Phil

[Adam2519]

The set is really coming together Dave. I like the wrap you did around the top and that shovel looks real good. Did you hot cut down the center of the bar to make the shovel? or use a bandsaw? and did you take pictures of the process?
Keep the pictures coming. Really good work and a good showcase of your skill level. You said this is going to a shop? for display? or their use?

Adam

[John B]

Looking good Dave, come together nicely, something like this may help keep your shanks in better shape when upsetting

[FieryFurnace]

Hey that'd be a nice rig Mr. John! You said you were retired right? Could you just hire a boat and ship all that stuff over? Should something like that be tool steel or just mild? I've got some 2" solid square 4140 about four feet long. I bought it for hammer dies for $25.00.

I used a bandsaw to cut the shovel handle. The upset was already on the end prior to the cut, and chisel cutting under the treadle hammer would have ruined the upset. I let the handle cool while I forged the shovel head, and then split it with the bandsaw.

Here is a video forging the loop on the shovel handle. No one laugh to loud.....I'm slow I know!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9PhEqvuK1Q&feature=channel_video_title

[pkrankow]

What's that background music?

Nothing to laugh about from my point of view.

Phil

[FieryFurnace]

The High Kings! Irish group!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JddRkt_FYDY

[John B]

Hey that'd be a nice rig Mr. John! You said you were retired right? Could you just hire a boat and ship all that stuff over? Should something like that be tool steel or just mild? I've got some 2" solid square 4140 about four feet long. I bought it for hammer dies for $25.00. I used a bandsaw to cut the shovel handle. The upset was already on the end prior to the cut, and chisel cutting under the treadle hammer would have ruined the upset. I let the handle cool while I forged the shovel head, and then split it with the bandsaw. Here is a video forging the loop on the shovel handle. No one laugh to loud.....I'm slow I know! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9PhEqvuK1Q&feature=channel_video_title

Hi Dave, Mild steeel, tool steel does not really matter Better quality steel theoretically better, practically, any bits laying around that will do the job, maybe case harden them but its surprising how long they last for even the cheapest bits of steel.

One decent cargo container should cope with my entire workshop and meagre amount of smithing tools, the whole set up is in a 26 foot by 16 foot shop so there isn't that much, but what is there is useful and there for a reason, may seldom get used but you never know when (should have some pics somewhere I'll look them out for you and post later)

A basic "essential" tool kit does not need that many tools, others are made and mounted where they can be easily identifiied or in a logical (to me) place, the more often I need to use a tool the easier to access it. (for some I have to do some serious digging, but hey space is limited.)

Now about this video, I hear no one laughing, but just come around to this side of the camera and you will see why you are taking so long, but again hitting metal is fun, and impressive and does time really matter?

Well, just come around here, look at that stranger on the screen and I am sure you can tell me where he can speed up his workrate, I'd love to hear your opinion, more important, get the guy in the video to listen and take the advice, as an improving techniques method, the video camera is your best friend, (and can be your harshest critic) but at least it is impartial.

You are doing good Dave, But you are currently nowhere nearing to even imagining the potential you have, and if I can assist just a smidgen on that path, I am well rewarded. You young man are a gifted treasure.

Now BS over, go forth and improve. You know you can, and that's more than half the battle, I am sure we will see the results coming along pretty quickly in your future projects..