A new meaning to hand forged hammers...

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[ThomasPowers]

Alan ther have been many discussions on what constitutes "hand made" in this world of tools. The definition I like the best deals with "Craftsmanship of Risk" vs "Craftsmanship of Certainty". If it's the skill and experience of the maker that makes the difference then it probably qualifies as "hand made" even when they are using power tools.

I sometimes do "period projects" where I try to use no tool whose form can't be documented to before the year 1000 or 1600 and that includes things like modern abarasives and drillbits. A real learning experience on what can be done the old ways---and how long it can take to do it.

Thomas

[Chris Pook]

I use powerhammers, I still consider my work hand made.

If you know anyone that wants to be a striker and can hit like my 300lb nazel that will also work for less than my hydro bill, send them over.

But for me it stops being hand forged when you start building elaborate dies and tooling that makes the process a one hit = 1 easily repeatable identicle part.

[Ed Thomas]

Alan: I'm not sure what part struck you as hilarious. It is commonly accepted that open-die forging is a craft requiring manipulation by hand. The powered tools are an extension of his hands and skill just as a hammer and tongs. We don't say "Hammer-made" or "Tong-wielded" when we say hand-made iron items. I have yet to see anyone hold the hot steel in one hand and smash it with the other fist to be purely and literally hand-made.

There isn't any more hype in this ad than in any of the USA stuff.

[patrickrock]

All I want to know is how do they cut down their power hammers so they can use them while sitting on the floor.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[Ed Thomas]

Okay, Alan, I see the humor now.

[Chris Pook]

Ed,

I don't need any definitions, I have a view and am entitled to my own.

I have to run to work, but wanted to say that to me power tools are not a representation of hand crafted. When I see something stating "Hand Forged Hammers", to me it implies these were forged by hand. For me this also implies the galoot way, by using muscle power.

Rather than a power hammer using a motor, what about the old style hammers that used water wheels or crank mechanisms to lift a head and drop it on the work? That to me would be hand crafted.

Chris, you're more than welcome to use a power hammer, there's nothing wrong with it.

Another example is a tredle sanding stone vs. one with a motor. tredle lathe vs. power lathe, scroll saw, drills, saws, etc...

       "By hammer in hand, do all things stand"

                                                 Gustav Stickley

If I could have a water powered hammer I would definetly have one running in my shop...that and a turbine making electricity

but in reality were I live all electricity is hydro generated so I basicaly have a water powered hammer just not mechanical linkage

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[Sam Salvati]

HAHAHAHAAAAAAA!! Alan I get it. I understand what people are saying, but hand punching a hole and punching a hole with the PH could be veiwed as different, one could be veiwed as being less "hand made".

[dburnard]

Alan, with this definition of "hand forged" or "hand made" you're going to go through life being seriously disappointed or seriously amused depending on your perspective. When you start making larger forged objects, like hammers, for a living - let us know how that works out without a power hammer.

I think there are two hammer maker's left in Japan who still do the work with their hands. Mr. Hiroki is the better known of the two and gets a reasonable amount of well deserved attention. IMHO he makes hand forged hammers.

It hasn't been economically feasable to be a professional toolmaker without a powerhammer in japan or the west since the 1920's or 30's. It's good to watch someone go through the full hammer making process to see how much hand work is actually involved.

P.S. - The marketers that produce that copy for nice japanese tool catalogs aren't japanese. Are Lie-Neilson or LV or Garrett-Wade any better when they wax poetic about the western tools they sell? Nope. That's what catalog copy writers get paid to do... romanticize the product.

P.S.S. - historically they mount all but a 6-8 inches of the power hammer anvil in the ground, or they stand in a pit. The video shows a modern air hammer - traditional japanese A-frame hammers are built low to the ground to begin with. I have one and had to build the frame up so I could work seated on a chair height platform.

[Sam Salvati]

Arguing and getting upset about trivial, a new past time.

[easilyconfused]

That's the way it seems to be lately Apprenticeman, too many people are letting their views and OPINIONS get in the way of open knowledge transfer and learning.

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[Chris Pook]

lol... hand made is hand made, just cuz I have a weight mechanically being dropped onto a tool I'm holding in my "hand" and tong in the other "hand" holding a piece of metal doesn't make the item I have made using my "hands" any less than the other item I made holding a hammer in my "hand" and a piece of metal held by tongs in my other "hand"

I think your really more stuck on traditional vs more modern forging...

[Scott Thomas]

Alan,

The term

[dburnard]

Apologies for being argumentative. In my first post, yet.

I was a bit taken aback by the reaction to the ad copy and surprised by the strict interpretation of what hand forged might mean. The tool makers don't have any say in what gets written about the tools they sell in a different country. The poetic descriptions are usually overdone and often technically humorous - clearly written by someone who barely understands the flavor of the processes involved.

Let's not confuse what we see in a 10 second video of a guy making hammers that sell 10000 miles away for $40 (of which he sees maybe $5, about the price of a nice apple in Japan) - as the best he's *capable* of. Most skilled craftsmen are frustrated by the disparity between the high quality and high level of hand work they are capable of doing and what they can actually find customers for.

Noteworthy tips: You can also see the spring fuller he uses to create/maintain the waist of the finished hammer shape. Also of note is the tin can of "lube" he dips the chisel into - it smokes rather than steams so it's probably a grease/graphite/molybdenum(di?)sulfide lube to keep it from sticking as the chisel warms up and the hammer head cools. Notice that the slitting chisel is held between two bamboo slats, you create this while the bamboo is wet and wire or band it together. Quite effective and lightweight.

I was being facetious when I suggested that you wanted make hammers for a living. It's great that you are going to learn how to make your own hammers and other tools all by hand. It's the handwork that really appeals to me, too, and that's yet another reason why I'll probably never be able to quit my day job (#1 reason is either general laziness or lack of skill). I figure when I run out of hands that are actively involved in critical parts of the process, it's all good.

As for knife sized objects, a power hammer would be overkill as would a striker. So no, it's just me and my hammers. When I'm shaping square steel stock for a new forging hammer - I use the power hammer and wish I had a bigger one. When I'm drawing out the reins on the nth pair of tongs - I use the power hammer. Ya know, some of my hammers are "foot forged" since I usually punch with the aid of a treadle hammer. Just my luck, that would show up in the ad copy as some sort of virtuoso clogging performance...

Thanks for the welcome, next time you're up in our neighborhood stop by and I'll give you a tour/demo/beer/knife. Yikes that last combination sounds like a bad idea!

[Frosty]

Apologies for being argumentative. In my first post, yet.


Thanks for the welcome, next time you're up in our neighborhood stop by and I'll give you a tour/demo/beer/knife. Yikes that last combination sounds like a bad idea!

Welcome aboard!

Your offer sounds good to me; you just want to be a little careful of the order in which you gift. And your neighborhood is?

If you or anyone reading this ever get to my neighborhood please drop in.

Frosty from beautiful Meadow Lakes Alaska.

[Sam Salvati]

If you really want to see SOME BS, check out the terms used by the sword dealers, or SLO dealers. "Battle Ready" is a term that is used to describe JUNK stainless SLO(Sword Like Objects) that are no where NEAR ready for any battle, not even imaginary swinging about(the blades can come loos right out of the handle and fly like a big spear). So hand forged can mean anything frfom cast iron to real blacksmith made items. ALan I think meant no seriousness in his original post, I find the jhoke he made hilarious, I also find the reactions some had ALSO HILARIOUS!!!!!

[Rantalin]

Actually Sam, most Sword distributers classify "battle ready" as being high carbon steel. And a lot of these a hand forged.

Example from museumreplicas.com,

"Real museum quality sword, knife and dagger reproductions that are hand forged like the originals. Made from high carbon steels and other authentic materials these blades handle and flex like the real things. The fully tempered, full tang blades are battle ready for your next crusade or just display ready for your office or den."

or from SwordsofHonor.com,

"All swords are of the highest quality, usually forged out of high carbon spring steel, and are battle ready."

I'm sure there are many sites and stores that make the claim "battle ready" for SS pieces of junk meant only to sit on a shelf, but most if not all of the places I've been too only make the "battle ready" claim on the higher quality swords.

[Rantalin]

Remember, nothing is truly 100% hand made. As the saying goes,

[Sam Salvati]

Actually Sam, most Sword distributers classify "battle ready" as being high carbon steel. And a lot of these a hand forged.

Example from museumreplicas.com,

"Real museum quality sword, knife and dagger reproductions that are hand forged like the originals. Made from high carbon steels and other authentic materials these blades handle and flex like the real things. The fully tempered, full tang blades are battle ready for your next crusade or just display ready for your office or den."

or from SwordsofHonor.com,

"All swords are of the highest quality, usually forged out of high carbon spring steel, and are battle ready."

I'm sure there are many sites and stores that make the claim "battle ready" for SS pieces of junk meant only to sit on a shelf, but most if not all of the places I've been too only make the "battle ready" claim on the higher quality swords.

Well yeah lately they are using crappy carbon steels with porr heat treatment. But BACK IN THE DAY hehe they used to call all ss crud swords "battle ready". Now EVERYTHING is battle ready hehe. Sometimes it applies like with MRL, sometimes it doesn't like with:

True Swords - Kill Bill, Last Samurai, Movie Sword, Japanese Katana, Ninja, Medieval, Final Fantasy Swords

[kogatana]

Hey, Is Alan really banned? How come we don't see his postings anymore? Without his first post this thread loses some of its pepper!

Anyway. I come maybe a bit late in the discussion to add something.
Instead of hand made, which as we have said here is a "melting-pot" notion, I would suggest the term "traditionally made". That implies to define what traditional is: a tradition now and here may not be the tradition 50 years ago there.

I'll try to explain more what I mean by traditionally made. In Japan, twice a year, there's a meeting called kezuroukai, which is mainly oriented toward woodworking, but since the woodworking tools in Japan are deeply linked with the toolmaker, some blacksmith are always present at this meeting, and some of them will show various blacksmith technic. Since it is not convienient to bring a power hammer or a big grinder on site, each tool is done entirely according to traditional technics, and the "made by hand" expression takes all its meaning there. The making of a chisel for example need one or two stricker, then the shaping of the tool is done entirely with files and with special scrapers (the sen).
Ok, the traditional method nowaday would imply the use of a power hammer, and as Dave mentioned earlier, there's very few shops that do not use a power hammer.

What we've been talking about is similar to hand-made in woodworking. It's fun to cut down the tree yourself, rip it yourself with a big saw and let it dry. Then you plane the planks, dress them and resaw them and eventually you can start fine woodworking. All this without one electron spent. But while it is very formative, at some point you may start using some surfacer, thickener, band saw and else, because it saves time (I personally have none of the above mentioned machines but used them).

I like the hand-made exercises, and since it's not anytime soon that I'll have access to a power hammer (lack of place in my appartement), I think I'll use my own power and will thus remain limited to small projects.

But power hammer or not, as it has been mentioned in this thread, as long as it is not mass produced, it still has the "man/hand made" touch. And that is what counts most.

Ludo

[Foo]

When Alan broke rules on several instances we let it slide; unlike those instances, he tried to remove all his postings with ill intention and intent to hurt I Forge Iron as a whole. He was banned from the site.