Countryboy39067 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 In the book "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" on page 279 the author teaches how to make hammer dies using rail track filling the space with a carved to mate hardwood. Has anyone tried this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 In the book "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" on page 279 the author teaches how to make hammer dies using rail track filling the space with a carved to mate hardwood. Has anyone tried this? Apparently this guy has: Alexander G. Weygers, Sorry, couldn't resist that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryboy39067 Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 Apparently this guy has: Alexander G. Weygers, Sorry, couldn't resist that. Apparently so....lol I'm just looking for people who have long term experience with this set up.Thanks for the reply anyway. Replis means it stays at the top of the list!! haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I've built three sets of dies from railroad track using a similar method, but my die-holding setup is different from anyone else's that I've seen, so before describing the dies, here's the system: That said, I cut the track lengthwise down the web, one inch below the cap. Then I fill beneath the cap with 1" square bar. I tack it together, then tack to my baseplate, which is already drilled for plug welding. I weld everything securely, filling in the gap between the rail's cap and the 1" square. So far, seems to work well. I have a set of flat dies, a set of combination dies, and a set of off-center fullering dies. I'll try to snap pictures in the next little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Here are the track dies. Please disregard the hideous welds. I am slowly getting better at it. First off is a set made from a piece of rail that had been used as a field drag. In other words, after plowing the field, this was dragged behind the tractor to break up any clods and smooth out the dirt. This wore a nice progressive arc to the cap. This was the first pair of dies I made, before switching to the current die-holding setup. The remnant of the original baseplate is still there. I ground one end at an angle. I've used these dies for a number of different things, including roughing out blades. They can do a surprising amount of work on forging a knife, though there may be other shapes better suited. The other two sets are made from a different piece of track. The first is simply a pair of narrow flat dies. And the final set is a pair of combination dies. They are all a bit soft, but have stood up to hammering fairly well so far, and the main material for them was already owned and therefore cost no money in itself. They've let me do a lot of work so far and have a lot more work still in them. If they start to deform too much, I may see about heat treating them, but for now I run them as-welded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryboy39067 Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 Thanks! I never thought about cutting them and doing it like that. I have a 5ft section of track. I believe that will be enough to make most of the dies I want. Whats a good use for the section you cut out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I love RRT dies....This set I made years ago and they have held up as well as any made from the ''good stuff''. I harden the dies before I weld em which doesn't seem to affect the hardness...... I noticed the base plate in one of the pix looks to be slightly bowed by welding. If so then it will rock slightly on the table. I had this annoying problem and corrected it by bowing the plate before welding them together. Put a bow of 3/32''or less across the middle of the plate and clamp the die paralell to the crown of the bow..........after welding the flanges pull up true.........Even if there is a small space under the middle it won't matter , at least it can't rock...... ......................mb<br> ><,,><br> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Country boy- I haven't directly done anything with it yet, but my plans are: a butcher for isolating steel, fullers, cut-off dies, flatters, and so forth. Macbruce - My baseplates warp some when welding, but I straighten them a bit with the press and then grind them to fit. With my die-holding setup, it just makes for a tight hold. When I was using bolt-on dies (briefly), I saw that it would contribute to making it difficult to get the bolt holes lined up correctly whenever I made a die. Part of the impetus for going with my setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I'd like to see your set up, I' guessing it's a clamp down affair? And what turned you off to bolt ons? thx mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I'd like to see your set up, I' guessing it's a clamp down affair? And what turned you off to bolt ons? thx mb The link is higher up the page. The big thing that turned me off of bolt-on dies was simply lack of precision on my part. Getting eight holes per die to line up easily and quickly just wasn't happenning. I got one set of dies made that would bolt on, then tried to make a pattern so I could make more. The pattern matched the holes in the base plate of the die, but didn't match the holes drilled and tapped in the anvil. I realized that I was looking at a lot of effort and frustration down the road, so it would make sense to use my very limited precision and machining experience to build a die-holding system that would let me hold the dies in place without having to be precise each time with hole drilling. In short, I was working around my idiosyncrasies. As a side effect, my die-holding setup is a quick-change operation. I undo one nut per die, swing the arm open, slip the die out (sometimes needs a bit of persuasion), clean the scale out if it's the bottom die, slip in the next die, close the arm, and tighten back down. It doesn't allow for offsetting the dies like you can with a dovetail setup (neither do bolt-on dies), but that can be overcome somewhat with purpose-built offset dies or handheld tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I don't think lack of precision on your or my part is the major foyble . Hammers with dovetails deal with X & Y not so much , we got X & Y to deal with, and these machines aren't exactly mills when it comes to the index between top and bottom.................No matter how anal I was laying out new dies they always were a little out ............So, exact same problem, two different solutions. Here's mine......... One nut per die......I ain't gonna race ya ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Looks like a good setup. I particularly like the auxiliary tool holders on either side. Got any pictures of them in use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 The outboard bolts clamp the ''sow plate'' and when loosened allow it to be positioned in and out 3'' + -.The slots are wide enough to allow the plate to move side to side 3/8''. The tool holder/ adapter plate goes next, die on top and the tool (kiss block in this case) attaches to the pan handle........The tool holder can also receive wider than normal dies like the mill ball.........Shown also is an underbite setting with flat dies...........Kinda weird and ugly, but it works for me I'd like to see your one bolt clamp setup Stormcrow............mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 A simple way to line up dies with bolt on plates is to weld the upper die on it's plate and bolt it under the ram, bolt the bottom die plate on the sow block, put the bottom die on the plate, lower the ram, line up the dies and then weld the bottom die to its plate. Well it doesn't deal with the after welding distortion problem but I thought I had to share a so easy trick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Well it doesn't deal with the after welding distortion problem but I thought I had to share a so easy trick You can still give the base plates a slight curve to counteract welding pull........mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Stormcrow, Duh ........Found the link, looks like a cool set up............mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Interesting, MacBruce. I may adapt that adjust-o-die setup to my hydraulic press tooling. It could really kill a couple of birds with a singular projectile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Y'all be careful using homemade dies. This happened recently to my bottom combination die made out of a railroad track: I was running short on time and needed the dies. I had just enough of the same size railroad track to build a replacement, so I did so. I will be checking them both for any cracks before using them each time, and will see about making a whole new set of combo dies when I'm able. No point in risking my health over steel that has cracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Stormcrow, I was wondering..........Did you fully anneal and re harden/temper that die before fabing it? If not I reckon that's sure fire recipe for cracks. Old RR track is work hardened allot .......... Heat treating dies after fabing is a mistake in my view......too many different forces at play. After heat treating the die, fab it in stages, letting it fully cool between eash one, that way the whole mass doesn't heat up too much........Hope this helps......mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 My first guess was that that crack started at the weld area---HAZ cracking and then propagated up under repeated cycling. Did you preheat/post heat appropriately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I just welded and let it cool at its own pace. I'm suspicious of the rail itself, though; in grinding on it I saw a whole lot of odd lines all through the steel, looked like cold shuts. I'll replace it with better dies when I'm able and take a lot more care about pre-and-post heating, and will actually heat treat them afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 So no preheat? You can get HAZ cracking before the weld is completed. Proper preheat is part of the welding for High C materials! (3specially in heavy sections that can auto quench!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 No anneal, pre harden/temper, and pre heat?.............Work hardened steel needs annealing to re stableize, in my humble opinion...mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Normalizing should be above the dislocation climb temperature for that alloy so at least that. But that would require re-hardening and tempering too. For new rail probably not needed but for old rail a good idea indeed Good use of RR Rail? http://hackedirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/epic-win-photos-remote-win.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Falcon 72 Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Normalizing should be above the dislocation climb temperature for that alloy so at least that. But that would require re-hardening and tempering too. For new rail probably not needed but for old rail a good idea indeed Good use of RR Rail? http://hackedirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/epic-win-photos-remote-win.jpg Love it. I need one of those for my cellphone and my carkeys. Oh yeah, and sometimes my wallet ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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