Timothy Miller Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I have used H13, S5 and S7 for hot work. I have a job coming up where I have to punch a bunch of holes for small hammer eyes. I was wondering if there was any steel or other material with greater red hardness than these steels. The punch will be relatively small so it is more likely to get distorted than a thicker punch and I hope to work fast so I can make time on this. I am really interested in discussing other possible steel options no matter how exotic or even other metals like cobalt or tungsten even if its not totally practical. Not how to make the steels listed above work for my application I already have a working knowledge of these steels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 The tank penetrators that Hofi uses seem to be pretty heat resistant; got any friends that could pick you up a couple from a tank range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Talking to Brent Bailey last night and he said Atlantic 33 is unbeatable for any hot work tool other than a very small, detailed one It is available from a guy in Jersey (Atlantic Steel, New Jersey. Tel-718-729-4800) in full sticks or you can buy short chunks from this guy at a premium priceAtlantic 33 Its spendy..... the premium guy shows a price of $44/foot for 1 1/2" sq Brent also said if your buying larger stock the guy in New Jersey might sell a part bar if you tell him your a blacksmith... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 The tank penetrators that Hofi uses seem to be pretty heat resistant; got any friends that could pick you up a couple from a tank range? I'm not going to touch depleted uranium thank you. Also there's not much military on Long Island. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 I forged some Atlantic 33 recently I have some, to me it honestly it seems softer than S5, S7 and H13 to forge. Some times the tip of the tool gets elevated to forging temps if I'm not careful or having a bad day so I want something super red hard even if I have to grind it to shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I have not tried it but have heard good things about Crucible CPM 1V. It is a replacement for for H13 with better hot hardness if I remember correctly,$$$ though. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Yeah, I know a knife maker, Tom Ferry, who swears by the 1v, He uses it to shear "w"s in his Damascus billets in a hydraulic press Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I'm not going to touch depleted uranium thank you. Also there's not much military on Long Island. LOL! They're not DU. They're tungsten carbide. (I don't think Israel has fought an armor war since it got hold of DU.) Our own military uses tungsten carbide penetrators in place of DU in training ammo. It was common to find WC penetrators lying around the desert out at 29 Palms, fifteen years ago. (Many were almost undamaged, after being fired from the main gun of an Abrams at absurd velocities, and hitting who knows what! Very impressive.) If I had known then what I know now, I'd have grabbed a couple. I've seen them for sale at gun shows now and then, but they were very pricey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Lengthy discussion on the subject --->CLICK HERE<--- Gets into some of the powder metal alloys Tom was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Matt: Are you sure it's tungsten carbide? I understood it was just tungsten. Not sure though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Pretty sure, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 More I think about it, Grant, the more I suspect you're right. I always kind of wondered how those things could be so tough when (I thought) they were made of WC. Here's what Wiki says, which makes sense as far as the toughness question:Tungsten, usually alloyed with nickel and iron or cobalt to form heavy alloys, is used in kinetic energy penetrators as an alternative to depleted uranium, in applications where uranium's additional pyrophoric properties are not required (for example, in ordinary small arms bullets designed to penetrate body armor). Similarly, tungsten alloys have also been used in cannon shells, grenades and missiles, to create supersonic shrapnel. Tungsten has also been used in Dense Inert Metal Explosives, which use it as dense powder to reduce collateral damage while increasing the lethality of explosives within a small radius. [34] If the tungsten penetrators might contain cobalt, I guess you'd still want to be pretty careful about grinding them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Very interesting that v1. Thanks grant, anyone bought some and played with it? I am punching these holes by hand next step will be under the hammer. Once I get my rhythm down. Not sure if I am into the whole press angle I have one but I like to keep my hand skills in practice. I feel like if I automate too much I start to get soft and lazy around the anvil buts that's just me. I once forged some inconel 600 They use it for turbine blades I think. It forged the same cold as it did hot weird stuff. Im not too worried about toxic metal dust cause I just set up a 1500 cfm Torit dust collector on my Stephen Bader space saver Woot! Woot!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 We are going to try using H19 for a blob punch for punching hammer eyes, we have found some here in Oz that we can get for a reasonable price. I seem to remember it has better hot hardness properties than H13. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 We used to use H13 for the aluminum extrusion dies in a plant I once worked at and they had problems with wear and breakage of some of the dies as they extruded 900+ degree aluminum billets thru them. The solution we came up with was to clad the sections that wore till they broke and also build up the chokes with stellite weld.We used TIG for the process as it provided more controlled application. Don`t know if this would help in this case but thought I`d mention it.If you already have tooling that`s failing on you due to wear at less than red heat and are looking for a way to possibly save it I thought it might be an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Also look into a good high temp lube for punching. That industrial stuff that PTree was selling at one time makes a huge difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 I can do the job with the steels I have I could do it with 4140 if I go slow and cool the tool every 5 blows that's is my trick to keep the tool from over heating unless i get it stuck. Im tring to see what my options are above and beyond the normal blacksmith tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shimanek Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The tank penetrators that Hofi uses seem to be pretty heat resistant; got any friends that could pick you up a couple from a tank range? Those used to be tungsten; don't know if they have changed the alloy since I have been out. Some rounds are depleted uranium DU and i don't think i would want to forge any of that Just read the threads above and realized i was late to the party B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'll have to ask up at EMRTC and see if they have any of the old ones around. As the DU ones make use of the pyrophoric nature of DU I don't think I want to mess with that in my forge either. Though my forging of Ti has shown me that just because it can burn; doesn't mean it will. Don't think I'll do the experiment though, we have enough uranium in our water already, too much actually! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Hi there Southshore, H11 & H19 are better suited to hot punching, However have you ever thought of using 400 series(martensitic=magnetic) stainless steels, these are common cutlery grades and should be readily available they have higher melting points than most tool steels and most will easily harden to well in excess of the 62RC wich is the max you could get from S5. You should also be pleasantly surprised as to just how inexpensive these products are? Sadly most smiths shy away from stainless due to 'Alien' nature of the product, one reads of bladesmiths concerned about hardening s/s yet all the best chef's knives are s/s But ALL of the good ones stick to a magnet Regards Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 I have not thought of that. I wonder if anyone else has tried it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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