Small Gas Forges

[easilyconfused]

Alan, the CO leakage may or may not be dangerous. However, is risking your life worth going to a store and getting a CO monitor. They are cheap and effective and IMO a sound investement for any forge because you never know.

[Alan DuBoff]

I agree that it's not worth risking health over CO, but I don't even have a propane forge yet! So far I'm going solid fuel, but will build a propane when I get a burner (ordered). No real rush for me as I have a smithy to use each week, and heading over there tomorrow.

How much does a CO meter cost? Can they be had from a local BORG?

[Alan DuBoff]

no need for input here.

[Candidquality]

Pics look great! And just because there's cracks doesn't mean it's a total loss. I've known several who've developed cracks and such then simply patched with a satanite or something similar, and kept right on going. Looks like you're well on your way to getting there. It's always amazing the first time you get the steel that hot in short order. Still haven't forgotten when I did that 15 years ago. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Stu in Tokyo]

Well, we will see, the outside is a kind of white glazing and the inside looks like red dirt

I think I'll get some use out of it, but in the end, I'll buy the fire bricks and build something that should last a bit longer, I hope.

Cheers!

[oakwoodforge]

Stu , this little bugger was made by hollowing out a single soft white insulating fire brick, works great for small blades an such.

Jens

http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/30/cat/517

[Stu in Tokyo]

Very Cool.........or......ah HOT

Well, I want something a bit bigger than that, but good to know a small one bricker is possible.

Cheers!

[clark-kentski]

Stu.your making me a little,no ALOT nervous about your propane connection it is unsafe. please spend what it takes to get an approved hose and regulator.We want are new members to become OLD members.

[Stu in Tokyo]

Stu.your making me a little,no ALOT nervous about your propane connection it is unsafe. please spend what it takes to get an approved hose and regulator.We want are new members to become OLD members.

Please explain?

The regulator is specificaly for LPG, so is the hose, says right on it LPG hose.

The tank is also an LPG tank, I bought all the items at that same shop, they go together.

Not sure what you are talking about, safety is always my concern.

Cheers!

[Stu in Tokyo]

Just to show you I'm not full of hot air.....


Real LPG Regulator


Real LGP Hose, with approved hose clamps.

Clark-Kentski, I'm not sure what you are going on about, I very much appreciate your concern, honestly I do, but I do not see where you are coming from.

I'm in Japan, so the regulator you see is most likely a different brand than you see in Florida, as well as the hose, but they are the real deal............. you got me a bit worried....... :confused:

[the_sandy_creek_forge]

Stu,
You might check the phone and/or business directory for a refractory supply company, fireplace company, or something of the like. When i was lining my (coal) forge with hard brick i had to call about 10 different places to find what i needed. My hard refractory brick was $0.80 each from a company that sold construction materials. At the time I was in college and my ceramics professor could not believe that I had gotten hard refractory bricks for less than 5 dollars each, which was about what the ceramics companies were charging. (She then promptly went and bought the rest of the bricks that the company had in stock ). Check around, you might find a better price.
-Aaron @ the SCF

Edit: Please note that the company had the pallet of bricks sitting in the back of their warehouse and the price of $0.80 each was what they were charging for them when they had bought them. From the looks of the shrinkwrap on the pallet, the bricks HAD been sitting for quite some time.

[Frosty]

Stu:

Clark is referring to the hose barb you're using. Using a proper crimped on fitting should be high on your list. I've already mentioned the (apparent) zinc plating and the reaction with propane. Clark and I agree you should change it out for a proper fitting for safety's sake.

As to the fire brick you have available, model or serial numbers won't tell you what you need to know. You need the specs. You want refractory good for 3,000f. The white kiln brick is "probably" what you'll need.

The 1" "T" jet burner you built will easily bring 800 cu/in to welding temperature and a lot more to forging temp, high orange, low yellow, perhaps as much as 12-1,400 cu/in.

This last is for everybody with a combustion appliance in their home or enclosed space, be it a propane forge or a colman lantern. It WILL produce CO, even ventless kerosene heaters, approved for indoor use produce CO, they just produce an acceptible amount.

So, just because you're using charcoal or other solid fuel doesn't mean you can disregard the oxy consumption and CO issue. The very nature of a forge fire requires CO production to avoid damaging the steel. A carburizing fire is producing CO. CO is the carburizing agent.

Frosty

[Stu in Tokyo]

Stu:

Clark is referring to the hose barb you're using. Using a proper crimped on fitting should be high on your list. I've already mentioned the (apparent) zinc plating and the reaction with propane. Clark and I agree you should change it out for a proper fitting for safety's sake.

Frosty

Sorry, you are using some terminoligy that I'm not familiar with :confused:

Hose Barb?

I do not know where I would get a crimped on fitting, this is all they sell here.

Zinc coating on what, the pipe?

Again this is all they sell here, the don't sell black pipe, in fact gettin this was hard enough, most gas pipe now comes with a cream colored plastic coating about 1/8" thick.

Are you also saying the 1" T-burner is too big?

I have the stuff to reduce it to a 3/4" burner.

Just so you know, the propane tank is out of the Dungeon, stored in a breezy place, under cover, out of harms way.

Cheers!

PS I VERY much appreciate the help, and I'm not trying to be difficult, things are just sometimes different here.

[Frosty]

Okay, I'm replying to my own post. I really hate having to do that so by now I should know to check before I write something.

Stu:

I just took another look at your hose connection at the 1" burner. You simply threaded the allthread into the hose and clamped it off.

Okay. While a proper fitting would be preferable what you have should be safe enough, provided the allthread isn't galvanized. Still, even if it is galvanized it should take an awful long time for the propane zinc reaction to corrode through it. Keeping a close eye on it and giving it an occasional trial bend to see if it's weakening should be okay.

I'd still try to find a proper fitting.

Frosty

[Stu in Tokyo]

Yeah, I would kick that galvanised pipe and just buy some of the black stuff too.

I would if I could, but I can't find it.

[Alan DuBoff]

Stu,

I don't claim to be an expert and because of that I was concerned in getting the proper fittings and such myself. I decided to get a burner from someone that I know uses the proper pieces.

Could I have saved money and time? You bet, it was a 45 day wait to get the T-Rex burner, but I wanted to have something that I felt would produce the type of forge that I would want, should I keep it, and if not it will be something that will most likely sell quickly if I wanted to off it.

I enjoy DIY just as much as the next guy, that is what attracts me to blacksmithing in the first place. However, knowing it would take me time to understand the safety factor, I opted the easy route for the burner.

There are a lot of quality burners for sale, might be worth looking into if safety is a concern, and I don't know if it is or not, would err on the side of caution if it was me (and I did;-)

[Frosty]

Stu:

The zinc plating (galvanizing) on the burner tube will burn off on it's own. Unfortunately zinc smoke, zinc oxide, in quantity is toxic. It isn't the bogy man killer most folk think it is but therre is no reason to expose yourself unnecessarily.

Okay, black iron pipe isn't available but it's easy and safe enough to remove the galvy. A white vinegar bath will remove it in a few hours to over night and there are no toxic / hazmat consequences.

Alan:

There's nothing wrong with buying a burner and Rex makes a good unit. Perhaps if I'd subbed to the list and posted the plans a couple months ago you might've given a "T" jet a shot, maybe not. No matter.

No matter what burner you use you have exactly the same safety issues with propane. It's the gas itself that poses the hazards, the appliances only allow more failure points. (potential leak sites)

The number ONE issue is safety and only a fool operates a piece of equipment or tool that scares them.

When you get it set up, I'd appreciate a report on Rex's burner.

Frosty

[Stu in Tokyo]

White vinegar eh? Heck we sell that in the liquor shop!

OK, I'll give that a go, thanks! :D

[Alan DuBoff]

There's nothing wrong with buying a burner and Rex makes a good unit. Perhaps if I'd subbed to the list and posted the plans a couple months ago you might've given a "T" jet a shot, maybe not. No matter.

Maybe so, but there are a lot of plans and diagrams on building a burner out of off the shelf parts, and I did talk around to several folks, here on IFI, and elsewhere when trying to decide.

What most folks said was that yeah, you can build one, and most of them did...but they couldn't get the consistent flame and/or quality of flame they could with a milled burner such as the T-Rex. It comes as a cost though.

Also, I'm not pushed to get my forges completed and functional at the moment, but suspect I'll get the solid fuel forge going first. Having Ardenwood Forge to go to each week is not helpful in getting my forge going, since I have several pieces to put in place to be able to safely operate one in my yard.

No matter what burner you use you have exactly the same safety issues with propane. It's the gas itself that poses the hazards, the appliances only allow more failure points. (potential leak sites)

QFT. Some say that propane is very safe, that it can only light once exposed to air, and that it can only blow when it's compressed.

The big issue it seems is the CO leakage, and certainly burners like the T-Rex and/or Mongo burners present more concern in this regard, if you have them going to the max in a small forge. I will emphasize that I'm not trying to go "all-out" and get as much heat as possible, the use of propane would be for convenience.

I already have a 20 gal propane tank (one of the exchange units from the BORG) which hooks up to my small heater I drag into the shed once or twice a year. Might as well reuse that puppy!

A forge is no different than any other tool, that is that there are bad, decent, and good examples of such and one needs to decide on what is acceptable for them.

To me, having a clean unit like a freon tank, with quality insulation like kaowool, firebrick floor, and a quality burner like the T-Rex was at least somewhat acceptable for myself.

When you get it set up, I'd appreciate a report on Rex's burner.

Certainly will. It will be a little bit before than happens, still have another month wait on the burner, at minimum (45-60 day backorder...Rex Price must be doing something right to have backorder like that!;-)

[roy_tate]

Zinc plating (galvanizing) ... A white vinegar bath will remove it in a few hours to over night and there are no toxic / hazmat consequences.

... Perhaps if I'd subbed to the list and posted the plans a couple months ago you might've given a "T" jet a shot, maybe not. No matter.
...
Frosty

It's good to know that white vinegar and a little time can substitute for muriatic acid. I have heard that you should provide plenty of ventilation during this process.

And ... you were not too late to share the T-Jet burner with me! I have a 358 gallon propane tank, a freon tank shell, and some 1 inch pipe. This burner is so simple that I might as well try it out. I can always buy a T-Rex shorty or a modified side-arm later, if I am dissatisfied with this burner's performance.

This burner design would be great as a blueprint.

[Frosty]

Alan:

Propane does require air in the right ratio to be flamable. What makes it dangerous is being heavier than air and being reactive.

Heavier than air means it will settle to the lowest point and pool in a flamable air:fuel mixture until it's removed or ignited. Any air fuel explosion is far more damaging than just the BTU/rate of propagation output.

Acetylene on the other hand can decompose explosively into C2 and H2 without oxy releasing more than enough heat to cause the component gasses to combust in a secondary explosion.

This is the only comparison where propane is considered safer.

Propane is also dangerous in the way it reacts with other things in unsavory ways. you have to use propane rated hoses and NOT use galvanized fittings or it will corrode them causing leaks and an explosion hazard. It reacts with other things as well but these are the two most common dangerous situations.

Your 20lb propane tank will begin freezing within about 1 1/2 hrs give or take feeding a 1" burner. There are two ways around this. Upgrade to a 100lb tank or float your 20lb tank in a tub of water.

Frosty

[Blacksmith Jim]

Frosty, A third way to deal with the freezing issue is to add another 20lber (or 2) into the setup. Parallel tanks should reduce the amount of gas leaving any one tank. Just gives you a few extra valves to watch..

[henerythe8th]

The other thing that you could do would be to take your current furnace (some call it a forge--which is actually open topped) outdoors with enough pipe to make a new burner and burn off the zinc in your furnace.

In all actuality, you could likely burn the zinc off with a charcoal brazier...

Like others have said--the zinc vapors-gases-what have you-- can kill you!!!

Then you can build a new burner from your now "black pipe". It'll turn black eventually after you knock off the zinc oxide...

If you aren't concerned about the zinc fumes do a search on this site or elsewhere in the blacksmithing community on PawPaw Wilson. He WAS a well loved man, from what I've read...

H the 8th

P.S. Don't poison anyone else with that zinc stuff either! If you burn it off, do it in an open area well away from people, open windows, etc.

[Frosty]

Jim Paw Paw Wilson did something he knew better than to do. He chased everyone else out of his shop before he started. He then filled his propane "furnace" to capacity with 2" lengths of 2" dia gavly pipe and burned it off. He repeated the process several times filling his shop with enough zinc oxide smoke to almost obscure the far wall.

What killed him was a several fold situation:

First was a huge overexposure to zinc smoke. Normally zinc oxide isn't particularly toxic, it is in fact a necessary nutrient for your health. Unfortunately it isn't intended to be breathed and certainly not in doses several thousand times RDA. Even then it isn't particularly toxic. What it is, is mechanically damaging to lung tissue.

If you've seen zinc burn off as I have many times you know what the green flame and lacy smoke looks like. The lacy smoke is made up of sharp hook shaped particles of zinc oxide. These particles perforate longe tissues and take some time to dissolve. If you breath less than the safe level it will dissolve and dissipate through your system without harm. If on the other hand you breath a large amount your lungs try to dislodge the particles by secreting mucus and you develop pneumonia.

Even exposures as high as Paw Paw's can be treated; you'll be one sick puppy but modern medicine will almost certainly save your life and return you to good health. Paw Paw didn't see a doctor till he was literally too weak to get out of bed and by then it was too late.

And that was the second factor in Paw Paw's fatal encounter; he didn't seek medical attention when he needed it. He knew he was going to poison himself when he started, then he tried to tough it out.

A little won't hurt you let alone kill you. That said, there is still no good reason to expose yourself unnecessarily!

Frosty

[Alan DuBoff]

Frosty,

Is there an account of what happened to Paw Paw posted somewhere?

I've heard several different stories, and not sure what really happened, but yours sounds the most logical. I hadn't heard about him not seeking medical attention and/or if it was purely from the zinc smoke, which your version definitely states.