forging a box joint

[maddog]

So you say turning a crank all day is a is a good use of a mans life.

No. I did not say that. I am saying its part of a more complex picture and that economics is not the only consideration. Every culture and each individual makes his own decision about what is most important in his work and it isn't always money. If that were so, who would become a blacksmith?

[John B]

So you say turning a crank all day is a is a good use of a mans life. Get a blower set up a second forge put that guy on it and do more work. Any economist would tell you that. More stuff gets produced people have cheaper goods the level of prosperity goes up. That guy sends his kids to school and so on. Thats how the west pulled its self up and that's how the rest of the world is doing it now.

Just my opinion but Success and satisfaction are not always measured in monetary terms.

As for economists, their opinions are generalisations, and alter frequently towards political ends, and my evaluation of their 'worth' is considerably different from theirs.

More stuff gets produced, people have cheaper goods. Do they NEED these goods, or are they sucked into the materialistic way that is created by this culture we have, and are trying to impose on them, not necessarily for their good, but the home markets are saturated, and new consumers are necessary to perpetuate this (globally) suicidal policy.

But Hey so long as they are making money, do they really care?

Rant over






You come into this world as is, and when you depart you are a little older and there is not much you can take with you

[Mainely,Bob]

What I see is a misallocation of human potential and labor. He is probably not even being productive enough to to cover the food he eats. If that man were put to more productive labor he could better provide for his family and contribute to the economy as a whole. I could see if the man were blind or mentally disabled that would be a place for him in that society. I bet that shop is a subcontractor to a large manufacturer they are most likely getting pennies for the work they are doing. The guy is working in a clay/dirt forge using a nut as a bolster, a poor village smithy in 18 Century Europe was better equipped. Think of how many jobs you could create if you shipped your production to Pakistan with men working under those conditions. The per capita income of Pakistan is about $1000 per person.

What people keep doing in these type of discussions is comparing apples to oranges.
Without actually being immersed in the culture we really have no right to decide what is "right".Just because something is different doesn`t mean it`s wrong,it just means it`s different.
I`d be willing to bet that if many of the people in that video could travel to an industrial nation and see robots doing most of the work and then see the long unemployment lines they`d shake their heads and think how foolish and wasteful we are.
What WE are wasting is human potential on a rather grand scale.We`re cutting good people off from a chance to feel productive and retain their sense of self worth.
"By making something useful a man makes himself",a quote from Ghandi,one of their own neighbors and a world leader.
I totally get what Grant was saying and have trouble understanding why someone who pounds hot iron using a hammer and anvil even as a hobby can`t grasp the concept of needing to integrate community into the process of appropriate technology.Some folks have a HUGE blind spot.

BTW-I`ve looked at a lot of different things stamped Pakistan.Never bought any of them as I have yet to find something that was suitable for anything other than decorative purposes.The fault isn`t with the people making these things(the videos prove that),it`s with the people setting the standards.

[Timothy Miller]

sorry double post

[Timothy Miller]

Just my opinion but Success and satisfaction are not always measured in monetary terms.

As for economists, their opinions are generalisations, and alter frequently towards political ends, and my evaluation of their 'worth' is considerably different from theirs.

More stuff gets produced, people have cheaper goods. Do they NEED these goods, or are they sucked into the materialistic way that is created by this culture we have, and are trying to impose on them, not necessarily for their good, but the home markets are saturated, and new consumers are necessary to perpetuate this (globally) suicidal policy.

But Hey so long as they are making money, do they really care?

Rant over


You come into this world as is, and when you depart you are a little older and there is not much you can take with you

Pakistan literacy rate of 57% and a life expectancy of 63 Im not saying that they need to become big fat SUV driving consumers. All I'm saying is if the guy had better equipment he could do more work not put a man out of work. He could have a little more food in his bowl and send his children to school. He could still have his culture and everything he values. Im sure if you asked him would you like a generator and a blower or even a power hammer he would jump at the chance. These people are not blacksmithing for personal fulfillment like many of us here they are doing it because it may have been the only opportunity available to them.

[Mainely,Bob]

In my mind this is an example of cultures colliding.If you think this has no relation to anything going on here in the US then I would suggest you go to any one of the reservations and ask a Native American for their views on this subject.
When cultures/countries/societies with different belief and social systems collide one or both are bound to be forced to give up things.Who is the winner and who is the loser when the dust settles is strictly a matter of personal opinion.
What is "best" is based on your belief system and we need to keep in mind there are many different systems in play.Complete understanding of the rules in poker means little in a game of checkers.

[ianinsa]

Bob,
The guy setting the standard? by this I take it you mean the Pakistani 'boss'. If so I think one needs to understand/relate a desperate problem in Pakistan and surrounds(Bear in mind that the Afgans think of Pakistan as rich?) Well as much as I could make out from some of the guys we have employed from Peshwar and surrounds. The people are poor in everything but faith. By this I mean in general knowledge and schooling(Before I get jumped on! let me make it clear they are neither stupid nor unskilled).The education is largely by mullas who consentrate more on language and religious teachings. So the average joe is oblivious to geometry and the visual consept of angles and of "what is square!" If we had grown up in some ramshakle dwelling/shack,kobbled together with whatever you could scrounge(sounds a bit like my place )your table was rickety and your chairs wonky and every other item of furniture was some hand me down. Your neighbourhood was run down and you never got to glimpse one fine thing your interpretation of a high standard may be 'it works does it not?' We have similar problems in Africa were many have never had the oportunity to see,feel,touch and experience something 'fine' and this skews their perceptions of well made/properly done, mostly through no fault of their own.

Ian

[Mainely,Bob]

Bob,
The guy setting the standard? by this I take it you mean the Pakistani 'boss'. If so I think one needs to understand/relate a desperate problem in Pakistan and surrounds(Bear in mind that the Afgans think of Pakistan as rich?) Well as much as I could make out from some of the guys we have employed from Peshwar and surrounds. The people are poor in everything but faith. By this I mean in general knowledge and schooling(Before I get jumped on! let me make it clear they are neither stupid nor unskilled).The education is largely by mullas who consentrate more on language and religious teachings. So the average joe is oblivious to geometry and the visual consept of angles and of "what is square!" If we had grown up in some ramshakle dwelling/shack,kobbled together with whatever you could scrounge(sounds a bit like my place )your table was rickety and your chairs wonky and every other item of furniture was some hand me down. Your neighbourhood was run down and you never got to glimpse one fine thing your interpretation of a high standard may be 'it works does it not?' We have similar problems in Africa were many have never had the oportunity to see,feel,touch and experience something 'fine' and this skews their perceptions of well made/properly done, mostly through no fault of their own.

Ian

Ian, hear what you`re saying and totally agree.
What I am saying is there is someone who has contacted these people and contracts with them to have them supply a product that meets a certain standard.Judging from what I`ve seen in these and other videos these guys are the next best things to magicians.They take material and using primitive tools and basic skills they turn out really useful and amazing products that they or anyone else in their village may never get a chance to either own or use.These guys are professional blacksmiths yet how much fancy ironwork do you think they have in their homes?
I have no doubt if that same person who ordered all those pliers were to bring a more complicated or finely finished item to these guys they could and would find a way to duplicate it.
My point is;set the standard high and provide the proper guidance/training and motivation and most people will try their best to meet those standards regardless of their education or social standing.If the people in Pakistan are producing what we consider to be crap then it`s because someone contracted with them to make it that way.

[fciron]

They were contracted to make it that way so that it is priced low enough to sell at WalMart. Most westerners will buy the cheapest version of something and treat it as disposable. If it breaks, buy a new one.

Bam! Welcome back to the USA. (I know, apologies to the non-'mercans reading. daggum sensitive furriners!)

[Timothy Miller]

Actually those guys are making high quality optical pliers. That will be the day you see hand made box joint pliers at walmart.

[Fosterob]

The tongs that Tom Clark sold were from pakistan and were ALMOST as nice as Grants. They were well made, probably in a shop similar to that one in the video. I think the powerhammers he sold were also from there?
Rob

[fciron]

I was replying to Mainly Bob's remark about people being contracted to make cheap crap, not specifically the products in the video. We're starting to get cross currents in our off topic conversation.

A lot of jewelry tools are made in India and Pakistan too and some are very nice.

[ianinsa]

Ian, hear what you`re saying and totally agree.
What I am saying is there is someone who has contacted these people and contracts with them to have them supply a product that meets a certain standard.Judging from what I`ve seen in these and other videos these guys are the next best things to magicians.They take material and using primitive tools and basic skills they turn out really useful and amazing products that they or anyone else in their village may never get a chance to either own or use.These guys are professional blacksmiths yet how much fancy ironwork do you think they have in their homes?
I have no doubt if that same person who ordered all those pliers were to bring a more complicated or finely finished item to these guys they could and would find a way to duplicate it.
My point is;set the standard high and provide the proper guidance/training and motivation and most people will try their best to meet those standards regardless of their education or social standing.If the people in Pakistan are producing what we consider to be crap then it`s because someone contracted with them to make it that way.

Bob,
You are so right on the button with that one, however if the buyer was to show them the "orgional italian/german" job the shop owner would realise that his $0.5/ea was too low and potentially 'mess' with his customers 600% mark-up!
Ian

Insidentally those pliers look similar to ones that you can pick up on Dubai construction sites used by Pakistani/Bangladeshi re-bar fixers. Price aprox 5.00DHS (1$=3.675DHS)

[pkrankow]

I have a pair of forceps (Kelly hemostat) for fishing, and they are a box joint. They have loosened, and there is a pivot pin on only one side. They are a cheap pair, and have loosened so you can see into the joint. I doubt I can photograph the joint well to show any detail. I cannot tell if the pin is part of the outside or inside part, or driven in separate.

Phil

[Frank Turley]

Not attempting to get involved with eco-political-social issues. David Gano of Montana made a beautiful box jointed pair of "pickle tongs" which are not riveted. It is purely a friction joint. They are about a foot long and designed for getting a pickle out of the jar. The tongs have a smooth scale finish and when I give them to a person and tell them about the joint, they immediately want to open them and try to pull the joint apart to check for a rivet. One guy slopped up the joint by pulling them apart, and luckily, I was able to cold hammer-tap them together again. From thence forward, I warn people about wrecking the joint.

Seven P's. "Prior proper preparation prevents pixx poor performance." The Pakistani films did not show all the preparation that went into the work before hammering the pieces together. Cold work was to follow the hammered assembly, as well. The part that was inserted was necked on both sides leaving a flat, specifically angled "wasp waist." The hot opening showed drifting over the big nut, but not too clearly that it had already been slit chiseled.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools