suitable fuel

[Ferrous Beuler]

I have a question regarding coal. I did a search on this forum but didn't quite find the answer I was looking for but might have missed it there. Here's my question- I would like to find a source for coal which does not involve a three hour round trip from home. There are two sources where I can obtain good blacksmithing coal (pocahontas). One near Syracuse N.Y. and one near Buffalo N.Y. I'm right in the middle between the two so it's a roadtrip either way and takes the better part of half a day. Also now that winter is approaching that means wet coal as both suppliers have it outside in the open. Can I use the coal which I see advertised locally which is intended as home heating fuel? What is the difference? Thanks for any advice here. Keep on hammerin'. Dan:)

[Ferrous Beuler]

OOPS; before I forget, anyone have any experience or advice on any alternate fuels besides hardwood charcoal? Does any such alternate exist? Dan:)

[bipolarandy]

Ok, Take a ride down to the Amherst Museum - Keeping History Alive and and load up on some of our coal.

Its $5/bucket (bring your own buckets) Cost $5 for about 33#. Load yourself. You get it from the Museum between 9:00am and 4:00pm Monday - Friday.
Payment to Jean Neff with either a check or exact cash in envelope, and your name/number of buckets/ amount enclosed printed on front of envelope. Weekend pickup by arrangement with Bob Corneck only -(716) 741-4311 (museum will refuse you access otherwise).

On to your other questions, Wet coal is fine to burn, infact alot of people store there coal wet so it coke's up better. And you can use heating coal (Anthracite) for forging, it just wont burn any were as hot as soft coal.

Personally , I'v found the joy of the propane forge. Turn it on and go, when your done turn it off. No buckets of coal to haul around, no nasty sulfur smoke, and no clinkers or ash to worry about.

-Andrei

[Woody]

Most of the stove coal I have seen is Anthracite (hard coal) it is very hard to keep lit all by itself. It needs a constant air blast. I have used it mixed with soft coal and while not the best it will do in a pinch. Remember that in the old days blacksmiths used whatever coal was available or made their own charcoal. There are those that will tell you one must have Pocohontas #3 or some other superior grade of coal to smith with but I suspect that they are relatives of Ike Cant (remember he died in the poor house). I was once told that the local coal available here from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming could not be used for smithing. I was extreemely relieved to hear that as I had just finished my 4th Damascus blade using that coal. Had someone told me that in the beginning, I would have saved myself the trouble and effort of making 4 knives. Pocohontas #3 is definately superior coal and once you have used it, you never want anything else, but most of the coal available will do in a pinch, it is just harder to work with. You might check with your local suppliers and see if they have some low sulfur high BTU (13,500) coal available. Here in Rapid City, SD I checked with the local supplier and to my utter amazement he has Pocohontas #3 in 40 lb plastic bags at $8.30 a bag. While that price is not the best, it gave me 120 lbs for ten cents cheaper than I had been buying 100 lbs of supposed blacksmith coal from a mine in Raton, NM that the local blacksmith association had trucked in. All things considered, perhaps you should look at building a propane forge.

Woody

[Marc]

About that anthracite - I don't use coal, but I'm curious after reading the Foxfire blacksmithing chapter. They say that anthracite was the preferred choice of coal, because it burned cleaner. But the soft bituminous was normally used because it was easier to get. Apparently Aubuchon Hardware Stores were more plentiful in Appalachia at that time (a New England thing :-) And I would expect that they didn't keep a constant blower going while forging.

Then I got to thinking that that anthracite is burned in thousands of coal stoves and those seem to stay lit all winter long with no blower at all. Draft is enough. The biggest beef with those is that they're hard to light, but people have their tricks.

So maybe we have a case where the forge design itself could be tweaked to keep the fire lit? How about opening up a gate to the tuiere to let outside air come in when the blower is off?

Just a thought that came up on a cold, rainy, windy, day.

[Ed Thomas]

Dan: Do NOT use furnace grade coal if you can help it. It is dirtier coal and does not coke up very well, if at all. It generates a lot of fly ash, rather than clinker and the fire is much more difficult to maintain. I've used a few tons of it, and it wasn't worth the price... which was free. It is bituminous coal also, not anthracite. At least every batch I've ever messed with has been, including the many tons I shoveled into our stoker as a kid.

A professional blacksmith friend from Europe was convinced anthracite was the better fuel until he got a chance to try some decent Pocohontas #3. He will never go back. Yes, anthracite burns hotter and cleaner, but is difficult to start and maintain. Europeans as a rule do not seem to have access to the better bituminous coal we can get in the USA, so good anthracite is preferable to bad bituminous.

You might try calling the closest coal distributors and asking what the minimum amount and price would be for delivery. The best supplier here makes trips all up and down the east coast if the quantity is right. I'm local for them so it only costs me $30 to have them deliver a minimum order of 3 tons. Maybe you can get a similar deal around there. Most fuel suppliers are used to delivering. Three tons cost me about $525. It varies, but a full forging day means usually 30 to 50 pounds of coal so that's actually a good amount for me anyway and will last at least 1/2 year, and usually much longer.

Lots of clubs/guilds buy a truckload together and distribute it. So if there are several of you in the same area, maybe you can arrange a better price per person that way.

[backyardsmith]

i use coal and its anthracite and i dont have any problems with it and i still cant comprehend how a lower grade(bituminous.) coal can be better to forge with then a higher grade coal (anthracite) is it because the bituminous is eazyer to catch fire and stay lit correct me if im wrong

[Sam Salvati]

Just because it is easier to light and stays lit, doesn't mean it burns hotter, or cokes up really nice, or burns more cleanly now does it?

[Glenn]

Good coal for blacksmithing is low ash, low sulfur, high BTU coal of a usable size for the forge. The numbers suggested for good coal are less than 7% ash, less than 1% sulfur and above 14,000 Calorific Value in BTU's. These are not hard numbers but guidelines. Available analysis shows ash content of coals listed from 3.7% to 22.4% ash, sulfur from 0.4% to 3.3% , and BTU's from 8,467 BTU's to 15,500 BTU's Calorific Value.

Many blacksmiths like the Pocahontas No. 3 coal. Analysis from one sample of this coal from the Penn State coal sample database shows the following numbers.

Type : Low Volatile Bituminous (lvb) State: WV Ash : 7.44% Sulfur: 0.64% BTU :14542 Volatile : 15.70% Carbon: 92.42% Reflectance: 1.8

Seam : Pocahontas No. 3,

There is a Pocahontas No. 3 in Virginia that has 15,006 BTU, and a Pocahontas No. 3 in West Virginia that has 13,953. Pocahontas No. 3 coal is not all the same due to the way it was formed. You have to look at the analysis to be sure what you are getting, is what you want. The analysis is usually available from the coal company when buying coal.


Additional reference:

BP0051 Good Coal
BP0131 Coal, Coke, and Rocks

[backyardsmith]

Just because it is easier to light and stays lit, doesn't mean it burns hotter, or cokes up really nice, or burns more cleanly now does it?

if that was ment for me i didnt mean that if it stays lit that it would burn hotter or any of that but does soft coal even though its a lower garde it works better
if it wasnt ment for me sorry :p

[Alan DuBoff]

I've heard of folks forging with corn, but not sure of it's origin. There are corn stoves which folks use for heating homes, so it makes sense that there could be corn forges, at least to me.

You could almost make charcoal out of cobs I would imagine.

[Sam Salvati]

Hehe, lower grade HEATING coal is HIGH grade blacksmithing coal. And JR uses/used coal, it is in the gallery.

[Jymm Hoffman]

I lived in Niagara County for 8 years. The last time I bought coal, the place near Buffalo (1-1/2 hours away,) had run out and not sure when the next batch was coming in, so I drove to my old source in Euclid, Ohio, 4-1/2 hours one way. That was in the early 90's and I do not think there was any dealing of coal at Amherst yet. I realized I had to do something differently. I found out about Mitch Fitzgibbons that built a flexible propane system that would weld, I switched to using propane. If you get tired of chasing good coal, wondering if it would be as good or better than the last batch, the dirt and clean up, try gas. I have been building blown propane systems since 93 and have not used coal in my shop since. I do a lot of forge welding and do not miss coal. More time for pounding on hot iron, less clean up and no handling of fuel. They get hot fast, so it does not matter if I want to do something for a couple of minutes or all day. Light the forge and in minutes it is up to temperature.

[Sam Salvati]

Good point, but coal IS manlier, I mean MANLIER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Just kidding)

[Glenn]

The analysis tells the story.

Ash: impurities consisting of silica, iron, alumina, and other incombustible matter, left over when coal is burned.

Volatiles: Smoke etc

As blacksmiths, we want to buy heat. BTU's = HEAT. IF we wanted rocks, cllinker, or ash, or we should go to the gravel yard and buy rocks. Let's say you have a pound of 15,000 BTU/lb coal, and a pound of 13,000 BTU/lb coal. Divide 15,000 by 13,000 and you need 1.1538 pounds of 13,000 BTU/lb coal to give the same heat as a pound of 15,000 BTU/lb coal. This is 2307 pounds of 13,000 BTU/lb coal per 2000 pounds of 15,000 BTU/lb coal. That is a 300 pound difference in just BTU's. With the 100 pounds bags selling for the same price, so you have to buy 23 bags of 13,000 BTU coal or 20 bags of 15,000 BTU coal to get the same amount of heat. If there is a 1% ash difference between coal samples, that is 20 pounds of rocks, clinker, ash and junk per ton that you pay for but can not burn and provides no heat. Sort of like the fellow putting a cinder block in the bed of your truck before he adds the coal. When you calculate the money you pay for heat (BTU's) it makes things easy to understand. Or do you want to pay top dollar for this wonderful material that is left in the forge after the fire !!

BTU: the heating value, determined in terms of BTU both on an as received basis (including moisture) and on a dry basis. Calorific value: expressed in Btu/lb on a dry basis.

[Sam Salvati]

AHH, a funny thing Glenn. Awhile ago I was at this Fair seeing a blacksmith friend of mine demonstrate. While there I was wandering around checking other booths and tents out. I saw a tent that was advertising ground covers of different sorts and what was being advertised in the bin, CLINKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't notice a price on how much they were, but I think it woul dbe pretty cool if we could sell even our coal waste, and Help out mother nature that much more, and get some cash in out pockets.

[Frosty]

One of the problems with anthricite is how hard it is. Bituminous is softer and less dense so it sheds impurities more easily when heated,it cokes up easily.

Anthracite doesn't shed impurities well so no matter what you have excess sulpher, phosphorus and other nasties in your fire.

As is common, there is no true superior. It's more a case of most suitable for a given task. If you put high quality metallurgical coal in a stove there's a good chance you'll burn the grates right out of it. On the other hand if you're smithing with anthracite you run the risk of turning perfectly good steel hot or cold short to name the two most common consequences.

Frosty

[backyardsmith]

One of the problems with anthricite is how hard it is. Bituminous is softer and less dense so it sheds impurities more easily when heated,it cokes up easily.

Anthracite doesn't shed impurities well so no matter what you have excess sulpher, phosphorus and other nasties in your fire.

Frosty

oh i see now but ive had good results with anthricite so if bituminous is better for forgeing then i just gotta try it

[Glenn]

The heat content of anthracite coal consumed in the United States averages 25 million Btu/ton (29 MJ/kg) (12,5000 BTU/lb), on the as-received basis (i.e., containing both inherent moisture and mineral matter). Reference.com


That would mean that 15,000 BTU/lb divided by 12,500 BTU/lb means you have 1.2 pounds of anthracite to a pound of high BTU bituminous coal. Or you would need 2400 pounds of anthracite to 2000 pounds of bituminous coal to get the same heat. With the 100 pounds bags selling for the same price, you have to buy 24 bags of 12,500 BTU anthracite coal or 20 bags of 15,000 BTU coal to get the same amount of heat.


Other terms having the same meaning are blue coal, hard coal, stone coal (not to be confused with the German Steinkohle), blind coal (in Scotland), Kilkenny coal (in Ireland), and black diamond. The imperfect anthracite of north Devon and north Cornwall (around Bude), which however is only used as a pigment, is known as culm, the same term being used in geological classification to distinguish the strata in which it is found, and similar strata in the Rhenish hill countries which are known as the Culm Measures.

[Ferrous Beuler]

I want to thank everyone for their input here, all was most helpful especially you Glen -Der SchmiedMiester- and I have to agree with ApprenticeMan, coal is just plain cool. Yes, there is certainly a lot to be said for gas and having both options in the shop is the way to go- coal when I want to be old timey and gas when I want to be efficient. The corn thing is interesting, does anyone have any corn-y stories to share? Good luck and keep on hammerin'. Dan:)

[Site Admin]

coal for fuel
This is one reference on the forum to that subject.

[Archie Zietman]

corn works really well. At the local gardening/farming type store I can get cracked corn in 50 pounds bags for $6.00, it's ridiculously cheap, it works exactly like coal just burns a bit faster. The smoke isn't green, which helps. :)

[Dave Shepard]

Someone mentioned Aubachon Hardware for coal so I thought I'd look in there today. I walked in the door and almost tripped over big pile of bags with "Smithing Coal" on the side. I asked the manager about it and he said he has a ton of blacksmiths who come their to buy their coal, some of whom buy it by the pallet. $7.50 for 50lbs. less for a pallet full. I am going up to the village at the end of the week and I'll report back on it. The coal we have up there now is very dirty, and almost impossible to weld with.

[Ferrous Beuler]

...Cool...

[Ed Thomas]

Dan: I couldn't tell if you've already connected with the NY umbrella organization or not. Here is their link:

New York State Designer Blacksmiths

There are many blacksmiths in NY, and according to Mapquest, you are only about an hour from a friend of mine in Corning, John Fee. He is the forgemaster for the Southern Tier, and you can contact him on the main page there. John Fee built quite a few gas forges in the past and may be one of the single most practical and competent men you will ever meet, if you want to go that route. In any event, he should be able to put you in touch with someone for your fuel needs.

Good coal is easy to come by here in Virginia/West Virginia, for which I am very grateful. I have a 3-burner propane forge, but almost NEVER use it. I find propane to be noisy, wasteful, expensive and usually inconvenient. I can only heat the parts that fit inside the forge chamber, and it is very difficult to heat only the specific sections I need.