Anvil Stand - may have bough the wrong material

[jmeineke]

Went to the scrap yard today and picked up some steel to (finally) get to work on my anvil stand.

I came across a grate on the ground that looked like it would be perfect to not only mount my anvil but also to hold hardies, hammers, etc.. I'd still like to put some racks on the sides for additional hammers (some day I'll have more than 2

Also, the posts will be beveled and angled out 30 degrees when I do the permanent welds to the base. I plan on moving the main supports under the anvil itself, so the back two supports will be directly below the heel and the front under the front part of the heel. The grate will overhang under the horn and will be a little storage

My concern is that after I got all this stuff home, I realized that the grate is cast. It sure looks like it should hold up under some abuse, but is it anything I should be concerned about? Also, would you do anything different? I'm thinking a piece of plywood between the anvil and the grate, or maybe a piece of plate steel.

Anyone have any ideas for improvements? Will that cast iron be okay?

[monstermetal]

Id say the cast grate is a big risk... if it breaks its that anvil is likely to end up on your foot... If you really want to use it Id say a steel frame that the grate sits in is the answer so it is supported all the way around...

[John B]

I would suggest using the grill for a seperate tool rack and make an all steel anvil support, welding steel to cast is not a good idea.

The grill could sit inside 4 angle iron legs suitably braced so it is supported rather than welded to them.

[pkrankow]

mini platen table?
Phil

[jmeineke]

I was having a hard time finding the right size plate, saw that grate and didn't even think about what it was made of. After I realized last night it was cast, I had kind of hoped that mounting the legs directly underneath the anvil would take the "embrittlement" risk out of it, but yeah, welding steel to cast is still going to be an issue.

I'm not married to the idea of incorporating it into the stand, so I'll just head back to the yard today to look for a piece of plate.

Thanks everyone. You may have just saved my feet!

[HWHII]

You can always build a frame out of angle iron for the grate to set down in and it will help you avoid welding to the cast. It would make a great tool rack.

[therepairman1557]

I would say as long as you position your legs under the anvil you should be fine the energy will transfer through the gate down the legs if they are directly under the anvil . Where your legs are now in the picture looks good

[Dodge]

Its a really neat design, but if the grate is in deed cast iron I see another problem besides the breakage issue. Not sure of you welding knowledge but cast is very difficult to weld to mild. You may have it tacked OK but when you go to final weld it that where the fun begins At best there will be porosity (bubbling of the weld bead). At worst, it will simply break off with the first tap. Brazing might work but there's still the breakage issue. As Monster Metal said, a steel frame, e. g. steel angle, would be a terrific idea. Now, that being said, you could have lucked out and got a steel casting (doubtful, but...) If that's the case, that would be a cool stand. Be careful and be sure of your material. As said, if its truly CI, it would still make a dandy tool rack separate from the anvil.

[jmeineke]

Now, that being said, you could have lucked out and got a steel casting (doubtful, but...) If that's the case, that would be a cool stand. Be careful and be sure of your material. As said, if its truly CI, it would still make a dandy tool rack separate from the anvil.

This is probably a stupid question, but Is there any way i could do a test to tell the difference?

[pkrankow]

This is probably a stupid question, but Is there any way i could do a test to tell the difference?

One way is to drill a small hole between 1/8 and 1/4 inch should do. You only need to go about 1/4 to 3/8 inch deep, so you are below the sand cast surface (if it is sand cast). If the chips are black and powdery it is cast iron. If the chip forms a nice bright curl, even if the curl breaks up small, it is cast steel. Still won't guarantee welding will work. If it is steel then a spark test will help you determine the carbon content to help decide on the process to use.

There are other ways too, I am sure people will share.

Phil

[Norseman C.B.]

mini platen table?
Phil

I like that idea Phil .... B)

[jmeineke]

One way is to drill a small hole between 1/8 and 1/4 inch should do. You only need to go about 1/4 to 3/8 inch deep, so you are below the sand cast surface (if it is sand cast). If the chips are black and powdery it is cast iron. If the chip forms a nice bright curl, even if the curl breaks up small, it is cast steel. Still won't guarantee welding will work. If it is steel then a spark test will help you determine the carbon content to help decide on the process to use.

There are other ways too, I am sure people will share.

Phil

I did the drill test that you suggested. I think it's cast iron, but the chips were more grey than black. When I rolled the chips between my fingers they crumpled up into a powder. When I broke the tack welds (see pics), there was grey, sandy looking metal where the welds broke off.

Pretty sure this all means it's cast, right?

[Mainely,Bob]

Yep,it`s cast iron!Make a tool holder out of it.
It won`t work as a traditional platten,you need round or square holes to pound the hold downs into and have them hold.
It is also brittle enough that if you bolt things to it and apply force(like welding distortion)chances are it`ll crack.
We all know what happens to CI when you hit it with a hammer. :o

[pkrankow]

It might be a grey cast iron, so it could take some stress from bolting and some bending, probably not pounding. A sewer grate then is meant to have vehicle loads and be edge supported.

As a mini platen table it can stand as a tool rack till you need it, or be as mall movable "hot table". Be sure to put a brace for the hand truck to catch on so moving is easy.

Phil

[Mainely,Bob]

It might be a grey cast iron, so it could take some stress from bolting and some bending, probably not pounding. A sewer grate then is meant to have vehicle loads and be edge supported.

As a mini platen table it can stand as a tool rack till you need it, or be as mall movable "hot table". Be sure to put a brace for the hand truck to catch on so moving is easy.

Phil

I based my comments on his post that said he could roll the chips between his fingers and reduce them to dust,the fractured tack welds seem to prove this too.That post says to me it`s not the type of cast that will stand up to impact but I have been wrong about things like this before and I`m looking at pics rather than the real thing.

I think the other point Phil made bears repeating.Weld a horizontal brace down low between at least 2 of the legs so you can slide the foot plate of a hand truck under the brace and then tilt the loaded rack back and move it around easily.It`s the simple things that make a difference.Being simple myself I seem to learn (and sometimes re-learn) these type of things the hard way. :blink:

[jmeineke]

I thought about designing a support system underneath it and still have the anvil on it - basically weld it to a 'T' between the post or even make a square frame that rests on the posts like other's suggested and then put the grate on top of that. The anvil wouldn't fall if the grate failed, but I don't want to mess with something that isn't ductile. If it were weldable and not brittle, it would be cool to incorporate it in the stand.

As for using it as a tool rack or a hot mover, yeah, it would work good as those things but it's probably not a good fit for my particular needs. The scrap yard I go to will accept returns on non-custom cut orders, so I'll probably just take it back and get a nice piece of 1/2" thick plate today.

One more thing I forgot to mention - the spark test produced what I wouldn't normally call 'sparks' - more like a short spray of striaght, dull orange trails. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but it didn't spark at all like steel does. I'm guessing that's probably the final nail in the "is it cast iron?" coffin.

Many, many thanks to all who responded.

On a different note, what do you all think of keeping the straight legs instead of angling them out? I know it's not going to be as stable laterally, but I'd rather not be tripping on them. I could build them out a bit and give them a wider stance, but I'd like keep them straight so I'm not tripping on them. Seems like as long as I have enough girth as you'd have with a stump it would probably be okay, right?

[thecelticforge]

On a different note, what do you all think of keeping the straight legs instead of angling them out? I know it's not going to be as stable laterally, but I'd rather not be tripping on them. I could build them out a bit and give them a wider stance, but I'd like keep them straight so I'm not tripping on them. Seems like as long as I have enough girth as you'd have with a stump it would probably be okay, right?

Speaking of stumps... Is a wooden stand not an option?

[jmeineke]

Speaking of stumps... Is a wooden stand not an option?

Yeah, it is, but 1) I like the looks of metal stands - just a personal preference, and 2) I was also planning on incorporating some heavy duty casters on hinges that can be flipped into place when I need to move it. I move stuff around quite a bit depending on what I'm working on and thought the casters would help in that regard. Just about everything I have right now is movable. I do have a smaller 153 lb anvil that I probably will mount on wood, though.

Even my welding table is portable - just 70 lb sheet of 1/4" steel that I set on top of a wood table that sits on 1000 lb capacity (each) saw horses. For even smaller welding stuff & fit up, I have a T-slotted table from a radial arm drill and a small 12" x 20" steel C channel that I can throw on a bench. When I need the space, the board and the plate go up against a wall and the horses are hung from a rafter. The C channel slides under my workbench. My gas forge, still a work in progress, also has wheels.

That's just the way I roll

[ThomasPowers]

May I comment that having a place to put hot metal that is not the floor is a handy thing in itself?

And "the drill chips crushing to dust in your fingers" is all the nails it's coffin needs!

[jmeineke]

May I comment that having a place to put hot metal that is not the floor is a handy thing in itself?

Good point.

And "the drill chips crushing to dust in your fingers" is all the nails it's coffin needs!

Yeah, guess a part of me was hoping it wasn't cast. The grate would have been an kind of cool to have as part of the stand. But I can make tool holders, so not a big deal.

I took that grate back to the yard today and did a swap out. Had to pay $20 more, but I've got some nice 3/4" plate - 20" x 21" (bout 90 lbs). I wanted some extra room around the anvil base to work with. Should turn out to be a decent stand when it's all said and done.

[jmeineke]

Decided to learn Google Sketchup today and draw out my idea for the stand. What a cool app! Bit of a learning curve, but 30 minutes of video tutorials and you're pretty well set. The anvil is to scale too, but I couldn't figure out how to chamfer in the heel on the sides. It's good enough to show the size on the table, though and "anatomically correct" in size.

After seeing it all together drawn to scale, I think it will be plenty stable to let the legs stay straight and not mess with angling them. The cross braces underneath are 2.5" x .5" steel and the legs are 3" square tube. Table will be 20" x 21" x 3/4"). Casters will probably be added on at some later point, maybe I'll just weld a bar to it so it can be moved by a dolly. Not sure yet.

The stand may be a bit tall too - the avatar in the pictures is 6' tall. I kind of like anvils that are a bit higher than the knuckle recommendation, though, so I'll tack it all up and see if I like the height. It's a lot easier to make it shorter than taller

Please let me know what you think of the design - BE BRUTALLY HONEST. I'm sure I've overlooked something.

NOTE --- The anvil will be secured to the plate, but that is not shown in the sketch.

[Mainely,Bob]

Decided to learn Google Sketchup today and draw out my idea for the stand. What a cool app! Bit of a learning curve, but 30 minutes of video tutorials and you're pretty well set. The anvil is to scale too, but I couldn't figure out how to chamfer in the heel on the sides. It's good enough to show the size on the table, though and "anatomically correct" in size.

After seeing it all together drawn to scale, I think it will be plenty stable to let the legs stay straight and not mess with angling them. The cross braces underneath are 2.5" x .5" steel and the legs are 3" square tube. Table will be 20" x 21" x 3/4"). Casters will probably be added on at some later point, maybe I'll just weld a bar to it so it can be moved by a dolly. Not sure yet.

The stand may be a bit tall too - the avatar in the pictures is 6' tall. I kind of like anvils that are a bit higher than the knuckle recommendation, though, so I'll tack it all up and see if I like the height. It's a lot easier to make it shorter than taller

Please let me know what you think of the design - be brutally honest. I'm sure I've overlooked something.

Beat it hard and it`ll dance.
Look closely at what others have done,sort thru the pics.See a common leg detail and attachment/placement of joining members?Think there might be a reason why the majority of smiths do it that way?
Need I say more?

[jmeineke]

Beat it hard and it`ll dance.
Look closely at what others have done,sort thru the pics.See a common leg detail and attachment/placement of joining members?Think there might be a reason why the majority of smiths do it that way?
Need I say more?

I'm willing to bet that any tripod that isn't bolted down will dance (mine would still qualify as a tripod - angled legs or not).

I guess what I really need to know is are my legs far enough apart (currently about 20") to support a 300 lb anvil who's center of gravity is about 30" off the ground. I'm pretty sure that since my legs are at 90 degrees, they aren't going to be getting the kinds of forces on them that angled legs would and that the 2.5" x .5" braces that will be welded up top under the plate will take care of any lateral forces with "plenty of room to spare" so to speak.

Lowering the braces might not be a bad idea, though. I could use that to support a tool rest. Heck, now that I think about it that grate could have been mounted nicely on that 'T'. Ah well...

[pkrankow]

300# of anvil and stump will dance too. The only way to prevent dancing entirely is to have a substantial stump buried in the ground or bolt the tripod to a pad and in both cases fasten the anvil securely down.

OK, I was using an 8# sledge to upset at the time.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

I have a 515# anvil mounted on a large timber baulk. (18" wide by 8' long by thick enough to bring the 515# anvil to correct working height) I found that I had to "nail it down" to prevent it from moving when I was hammering.

(all it took was 4 fence staples added along the side of the anvil, 2 per side.)