Renting out my workshop to other smiths

[Jazborocketman]

Hello fellow smiths. I have a well equipped forge and amongst the usual essentials I have a large Massey power hammer, a Sahinler power hammer with several sets of dies, a large lathe, a 100 tonne press, a bandsaw , a large milling machine/pillar drill, a coke forge and a big propane forge. I list these items specifically as they are the things used most by other smiths who use my forge because they haven't got those things in their own forges. I have a question to which any opinions would be most gratefully received.

How much should I charge per hour for the use of this equipment?

As you can probably guess, not all my time is taken up using this equipment. It's a large workshop so I don't necessarily have to stop working to allow another smith to use this kit. I can do some welding or some other task which doesn't get in the way of the person I would be renting the stuff out to.

[ThomasPowers]

deleted liability concerns as I notice you are in the UK

[HWHII]

I am surprised no one here has any thoughts on this subject. I have thought about doing this myself. Currently I have a knife smith who uses my shop every Saturday for about 4 to 6 hours and have another buisness associate who does not have a power hammer come in and use my shop. They both cover there cost with consumables such as propane, abrasives, welding supplies, and electric. If they are doing alot of work they will through me a percentage of the job. They are both good friends of mine so making a buck is not important to me. I have been at a loss to come up with per hour figure to charge for other people. I have had beginners ask if they could come in and try there hand at it before they ran out and start buying tools and others who want to smith but they live in a apartment or condo and can not set up a smithy. I do hope some people well give us a opinion or two.

[pkrankow]

I can think of things to consider:

consumables
fuel
power
water
other overhead expenses
wear and tear on equipment
preventative maintenance(hourly, daily, weekly, scheduled)
equipment repairs
building space for daily use
building space for multiple day use (storage, project assembly, etc)
building security for your stuff
building security for other tenants' stuff
liability insurance (yours and theirs)
who is allowed on premises when

Figure who is responsible, figure the cost per day, some will be estimated, then tally them up. Draft a contract based on making an incremental profit, since you are sharing the space too. I expect that one additional tenant will not equal half your building and equipment expenses

Phil

[tzonoqua]

It all depends on how much you need to get by- to pay your rent, rates, utilities, insurance etc. If you worked out how much it costs you per day to run your workspace then you can go from there. It also depends on the rents in your particular area, and demand for what you have, because they vary enormously from place to place. I have rented workspace in the past and what I have paid for it has also varied enormously. This is a really hard one to advise on as it really does depend on so many factors so it's not easy for anyone else to give you a figure. Hope that helps in some way :)

[Jazborocketman]

Thanks for all your responses. What they have revealed is what I guessed would be the case; there is no normal rate. There are 2 ways of looking at the problem of working out a fee. You can look at it from how much I need to charge to cover my costs or, on the other hand, you can imagine how much it would be worth paying if I were the person renting. The 2 figures are going to be quite different. Ultimately it comes down to how much you like or dislike other people using your stuff and how much emphasis you place on maximising profit. I'll ponder this and work out a figure and perhaps give you an update when I've decided on it and give a synopsis of how I decided on that figure.
There is also the aspect of different rates for different people. I too have close friends come in and have a bash for nothing sometimes but my fee would only apply to other smiths I don't necessarily know very well, if at all. My forge is very close to the biggest college for blacksmithing in the country, Hereford, so that brings up the further question of the possibility of inexperienced people using the kit, increasing the chances of damage to kit or themselves. It is indeed a tricky subject.

[pkrankow]

Sounds like you may be after an hourly rate, with or without instruction, and not an ongoing contract.
Phil

[JNewman]

I too have thought about this in the past. If this is a day here and there as opposed to a monthly thing I would think you should be charging your shop rate minus labour. You need to not only cover your expenses but make a profit. You have invested a considerable amount of money into outfitting this shop you need to make a good return on that. While you can work on other things you are going to have inconveniences and having the other smith in the shop working on their project is going to slow you down. If you did not have someone else renting your equipment you could have an employee working there making you your shop rate minus the labour cost.

If this is a monthly rental it could be a lower rate but it should still be enough to make it worth all the agrivation that is sure to happen.

[Jazborocketman]

It is very much a random arrangement I'm thinking of; nothing regular at all. I agree that I should try to make some money on it for the reason JNewman suggested. No matter how hard I try not to get involved with the visiting smith and no matter how hard they try to keep out of the way and return everything to its proper place I always end up being slowed down and at the end of the day having to put stuff back where it belongs and do extra tidying etc. I always arrange visits so that the equipment they wish to use is not something I'm planning to use that day but it always slows me down by about 30% somehow. I do quite like the idea of charging shop rate minus labour I pay to some one working for me.
On the issue of how much people would be prepared to pay I'm thinking that you can do an awful lot of stuff in a few hours if you come prepared and , in addition, the visitor is not tied to the premises. He or she can just walk away. If I had a small workshop without all the big kit I'd find it pretty handy to use all that equipment every now and then.

[Dragons lair]

One thing i haven't heard yet is. Who pays for damaged equipment? A major failure on a power hammer would wipe out any gains.
Ken.

[pkrankow]

One thing i haven't heard yet is. Who pays for damaged equipment? A major failure on a power hammer would wipe out any gains.
Ken.

I did mention equipment repair in my list of considerations, major failures are a potential problem. You are correct in thinking that a major failure could make the whole gig very unprofitable very quick. Is there a form of insurance for this?

Phil

[HWHII]

I have given the matter some more thought and here is what I am going to try.

Keep in mind when you read this, my shop liability insurance will cover this and I have a very low overhead.

It starts with;

1. Forge area with hand tools beginners $10 hr. If your making for profit $15hr.

2. Add $5 hr for eachpice of equipment to want to use; powerhammer, welding equipment, ironworker, flypress, hydraulic press, sheetmetal equipment, bandsaws, and so on.

3. $20 hr for instruction

4. $40hr for run of the whole shop except for CNC plasma.

What do you think? I know I will have to make some adjustments but this seems like a good starting place for me.

[Dragons lair]

I have given the matter some more thought and here is what I am going to try.

Keep in mind when you read this, my shop liability insurance will cover this and I have a very low overhead.

It starts with;

1. Forge area with hand tools beginners $10 hr. If your making for profit $15hr.

2. Add $5 hr for eachpice of equipment to want to use; powerhammer, welding equipment, ironworker, flypress, hydraulic press, sheetmetal equipment, bandsaws, and so on.

3. $20 hr for instruction

4. $40hr for run of the whole shop except for CNC plasma.

What do you think? I know I will have to make some adjustments but this seems like a good starting place for me.

I think your selling the shop short. Call your local tool rental see what they get. I get offers all the time for my mini trackhoes. $100 bucks for a weekend. Last paid shop I worked in the owners bro wiped out 4 large lenox
BS blades in 15 mins thats $180 or $720 per hr plus he was getting paid. Had an old farrier friend finally had
his tool steel topped H-B surface ground. Perfect till some one bounced a 2.5 lb hammer off the face. Theis was someone he knew and worked with every day. Just a thought my friend. Is $10 per hr worth chipping(damaging) your anvil worth only $10. I have a CNC plasma table. Anyone can play with it. Its 10k a minute. If they break it I gotta replace it. Cost this yr $600 Turn it on and it won't work. My bad. Not saying all are bad Just be careful who ya let play paid or not.

[Ratel10mm]

To the original poster; do you know Bob Oakes? He rents out space in his smithy, the lady renting it runs courses for him. He also rents out the shop to his students although I don't know what restrictions he places on the arrangement.
May well be worth having a chat with him?

[pkrankow]

Get a "student" anvil or two and put a wood top on "your" anvil so it can be used as a table, but not an anvil. If the person shows adequate aptitude then they can be invited to use the better anvil.

Phil

[HWHII]

I think your selling the shop short. Call your local tool rental see what they get. I get offers all the time for my mini trackhoes. $100 bucks for a weekend. Last paid shop I worked in the owners bro wiped out 4 large lenox
BS blades in 15 mins thats $180 or $720 per hr plus he was getting paid. Had an old farrier friend finally had
his tool steel topped H-B surface ground. Perfect till some one bounced a 2.5 lb hammer off the face. Theis was someone he knew and worked with every day. Just a thought my friend. Is $10 per hr worth chipping(damaging) your anvil worth only $10. I have a CNC plasma table. Anyone can play with it. Its 10k a minute. If they break it I gotta replace it. Cost this yr $600 Turn it on and it won't work. My bad. Not saying all are bad Just be careful who ya let play paid or not.

Thanks for your opinion. I do realize I might be on the cheap side but I do want people to be interested and not scared away by the price. My hourly shop rate for blacksmithing work is $80.00 hr. This is what I based my rates on. Also beginners get to start on the old anvil. You are right. This could be a expensive lesson.

[John McPherson]

One local smith had the goons that (temporarily) shared his shop space cold hammering rusty rebar on his new $1000 Euroanvil while he was out. Cut a length of channel long enuough to cover both horns, glued rubber inside, made a shank that fit thru the hardy and padlocked it when he was not there.

I had to copy it for the school anvil, the formerly flat face looks like water ripples now. Our biggest school shop problem is that someone who only think they know how to use a machine, or gets in a hurry, wrecks it, then walks away, leaving the problem for the next person to discover.

I'd rather share my toothbrush than my tools. I can get replacement toothbrushes without 6 months of searching, rebuilding, and adjusting.

And did I mention that we can not keep any tools that will fit in a tool bag? School, student, even Instructors personal hammers, grinders, wrenches just evaporate. And yes, they are engraved, stamped, and painted dayglow colors. This is after alarming the doors not covered by security cameras because welders and plasma cutters were walking.