Zsartell Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I have been reading some of the posts here and elsewhere about building a self contained hammer. I once thought this would be an impossible beast to create in ones garage, but after seeing the one made by Patrick Pelgrom over at anvil fire I've come to think it could be an interesting project. I have a huge need for a power hammer in my shop as I just can't keep up with orders and I feel like I am destroying my body more and more. Ultimately I am going to build a "Tire Hammer" with an adjustable tup similar to a little giant (I'll save that for another thread), but the challenge of building a self contained hammer is intriguing. Knowing that I have very little spare time and almost no spare money right now, I thought it would best just to talk about it or experiment cheaply. One thing I thought might be fun is getting a hold of a couple of small pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders and running some tests with scrap around the garage. From what I can tell most commercial units have a compressor slightly larger in diameter than the hammer. What I haven't found is any mention of the ratio of volume. I can understand that the diameter should be the same, but in Patrick Pelgroms' unit the compressor cylinder looks to be a lot shorter than the hammer cylinder. This would decrease the overall volume of air that transferred from cylinder to cylinder. I would think that they would need to be the same length and volume to work properly and deliver a full blow (unless inertia gets the hammer to the end of it's stroke). (caution: epiphany coming)OK, that might make sense as the chamber for the down stroke would need some sort of valve to let more air in when there is negative pressure in the chamber. When the compressor has reached the end of it's stroke and the hammer is still on it's way down via inertia, the valve would open and allow the hammer to keep moving downward. Then the compressor would have flipped it's direction anyway and the valve would stay open while the compressor traveled down and pushed the hammer back into it's up position using the lower chamber. I guess if this is how it works as far as the length of the compressor goes, you'd just need to be somewhere between not long enough (that would change depending on a number of variables, but I'd say 3/4 of the way would be close enough) and the same length as the hammer cylinder (simple right, don't worry I have no idea what I just said). With the correct valve tuning you should be able to get it to run well as long as you are within these variables (not considering hammer weight). I would want to try an over sized compressor with a shorter stroke but the same (slightly larger) volume than the hammer (perhaps this is overkill). It seems like it would be easier to manage the crankshaft of the shorter cylinder anyway. But would you loose torque necessary to keep the compressor up to speed? Huh... No, that really shouldn't be a big deal as long as the motor is up to it. To deal with hammer weight, this is where studying commercial hammers and bench top experimenting with some small cylinders and junk piping might become very helpful. For the most part these experiments should not require any machining of intricate parts, but just fab work and creativity. Some ball valves, copper tubing, check valves, pressure release valve, old cylinders, some weight for the hammer and some sort of rig to hold it would probably do the trick. All I'd need is to see the action and get some numbers. Then scaling it up should not be too big of a problem. I scaled up a Hiller/Lockwood pulse jet (a lot) by experimenting and number crunching, this shouldn't be too much different. Although now that I remember that project took me a couple of years..... I must be crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Borde Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I've been looking for the ratio answer also. I like the basic design of Pelgoms hammer I will be building mine out of 1 1/2" plate for the body 20" round for the anvil but I dont want to start on it till I figure out the ratio on the cylinders. I think the reason for a larger compressor cylinder is to help in the exchange of fresh air to help desipate heat. thats just my thought though. I do have two cylinders off of air acuated knife valves one is 10" the other is 16" in diameter, that is a big ratio but I think I can make a shorter stroke on the compressor cylinder and be ok its just how much thats holding me back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 I've been looking for the ratio answer also. I like the basic design of Pelgoms hammer I will be building mine out of 1 1/2" plate for the body 20" round for the anvil but I don't want to start on it till I figure out the ratio on the cylinders. I think the reason for a larger compressor cylinder is to help in the exchange of fresh air to help desipate heat. thats just my thought though. I do have two cylinders off of air acuated knife valves one is 10" the other is 16" in diameter, that is a big ratio but I think I can make a shorter stroke on the compressor cylinder and be ok its just how much thats holding me back. Philip, Wow, it looks like you have a good start anyway. I am a firm believer that the bigger the anvil the better. One thing I would consider (and correct me if I read this wrong) is if you only use lets say 50% of the stroke of your compression cylinder the the unused empty space will work against you. Air compresses and that unused space will slow your hammer speed down by taking up the "ummph" that the compressor supplies it. Perhaps you could physically cut down the length of the compressor if it gives you problems. I would say that if you are willing to do that then you have all you need and could start long and keep cutting off until you get it right. If I were you, I'd find the length and diameter of each the compressor and hammer of some commercial hammers and go from there. If you get enough numbers of varying hammer weights, dump that into an excel spreadsheet you should be able to get more than close enough. I do see your idea about dissipating the heat though. I would think that some aluminum cooling fins on the cylinders and piping would help out there. Scrap aluminum is not that hard to find and you could cast some fins that bolted right to the cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratel10mm Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I'd ask Double_edge2 for information. I know his power hammer is made using off the shelf pneumatic components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Another thing I'd like to get more info on is "does it run well enough to bother creating one". Yes there have been some people out there that had made their own self contained hammers, but how do they perform compared to the commercial models? I know that it is more than possible to recreate the effectiveness of lets say a Nazel, but would you have to recreate the more complex valving or could you get by with something simple like what Patrick Pelgrom came up with. I just found the valve diagram for his hammer on Anvil Fire and it looks rather simple to me and similar to what I had in mind. I could see where you could easily add a couple of more adjustments that could help with the tuning (whether they'd help or not I don't know, but the more adjustment the better in my opinion). Personally I don't have the patience or tools to create complex rotary valves (at least right now) that could increase performance, but perhaps it really isn't needed anyway. I'd really like to hear from some guys that have build these hammers and their thoughts of how they compare to similar sized commercial models. Perhaps Double_edge2 could chime in here. I'll PM him/her Calling all Self Contained Hammer Makers! Let's hear your thoughts... That should do it... (I'm such a dork) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 If you cant keep up with orders and cant afford a power hammer raise your prices. If you cant swing an air hammer buy an old mechanical hammer for a couple of grand and get to work. A professional smith should be making enough money to afford the basic equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 If you cant keep up with orders and cant afford a power hammer raise your prices. If you cant swing an air hammer buy an old mechanical hammer for a couple of grand and get to work. A professional smith should be making enough money to afford the basic equipment. Agreed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Agreed.... I agree as well. Unfortunately, I am in a bit of a financial crisis and every penny I have needs to go to my bills (medical bills, I'll be moving soon-unwillingly among other things). If I was a full time smith I would say that a power hammer of some sort would be an absolute necessity. Since I now have a typical 9-5, it's hard to justify it at this moment in my life. Quite honestly I should just buckle down and do it. I could get a lot more work done and get better profits for my time. Perhaps I could even go full time. I completely agree that to make money you have to have the right tools. Some of my products were under priced and I have raised my prices recently to justify the work being done. The fun thing is that the higher prices haven't really slowed things down much. Maybe I'll just raise prices again and start saving for those right tools to make more money. Thanks for the awakening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Oh, I also wanted to say that a self contained hammer reminds me of a Free Piston Engine. They both work off of cushions of air to move a straight shaft back and forth. There is another project to add to the list.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 eh? The first hammer i made, the ram was made from scratch, 3 inch fence post, un honed cylinder, greased rope seals etc...and garage door spring return. it was fun. and even that one, single blow, washing machine water solenoids for air control and all...easy put a taper in 40mm bar. The one i have now is auto, foot pressure sensative, etc, and not self contained. the ram is 50mm x about 300 or so, and i have more air than it, the 7" air grinder and the 80 amp plasma can suck at the same time, coming from a 3 lung 10hp compressor. I did not make the one I have at the moment at the shed. as far as are they worth having?...oh yeah!. you get it working right and you will wonder what you did without it. you will need a gas furnace or have good fire control to keep up with the hammer. as for numbers, ratios and the like, i know they exist, like hammer to anvil and cylinder , stroke, etc, but im afraid i just do it, if it blows up then i ask.. maybe. For self contained, I would ask if any one has pulled their anyang or similar apart, and ask them the comparison at a glance or get some rough numbers from two or three blacksmiths that have. id have to have a look at one to see how it works. I would probably ask Moony or Dale Russell.. sorry i could not help, not with a self contained anyang type any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratel10mm Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Sorry mate, my mistake. I forgot your hammer's fed from the air compressor. Oops. Mind you, I still think it may be possible to apply the design of the hammer piston part of yours to a self comtained PH design as from the conversation it seems the valving is the hardest bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavala Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 This subject has come up several times, so I did the work for you.The drawings are thanks to Frosty who pointed them out on another thread . http://www.google.com/patents?id=lF5kAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent+707246&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=patent%20707246&f=false. I don't know if there to scale and didn't read any of the text but it doesn't look that complicated. like I said the subject comes up allot and I haven't seen any follow through. I hope you go for it and share all your findings. Btw I read somewhere I guy named Mark Krause wrote a manual on building self contained hammers I don't know if their still available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I wonder if anyone has ever taken an old steam hammer and attached a second cylinder to make it a self contained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I have been reading some of the posts here and elsewhere about building a self contained hammer. I once thought this would be an impossible beast to create in ones garage, but after seeing the one made by Patrick Pelgrom over at anvil fire I've come to think it could be an interesting project. I have a huge need for a power hammer in my shop as I just can't keep up with orders and I feel like I am destroying my body more and more. Ultimately I am going to build a "Tire Hammer" with an adjustable tup similar to a little giant (I'll save that for another thread), but the challenge of building a self contained hammer is intriguing. Knowing that I have very little spare time and almost no spare money right now, I thought it would best just to talk about it or experiment cheaply. One thing I thought might be fun is getting a hold of a couple of small pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders and running some tests with scrap around the garage. From what I can tell most commercial units have a compressor slightly larger in diameter than the hammer. What I haven't found is any mention of the ratio of volume. I can understand that the diameter should be the same, but in Patrick Pelgroms' unit the compressor cylinder looks to be a lot shorter than the hammer cylinder. This would decrease the overall volume of air that transferred from cylinder to cylinder. I would think that they would need to be the same length and volume to work properly and deliver a full blow (unless inertia gets the hammer to the end of it's stroke). (caution: epiphany coming)OK, that might make sense as the chamber for the down stroke would need some sort of valve to let more air in when there is negative pressure in the chamber. When the compressor has reached the end of it's stroke and the hammer is still on it's way down via inertia, the valve would open and allow the hammer to keep moving downward. Then the compressor would have flipped it's direction anyway and the valve would stay open while the compressor traveled down and pushed the hammer back into it's up position using the lower chamber. I guess if this is how it works as far as the length of the compressor goes, you'd just need to be somewhere between not long enough (that would change depending on a number of variables, but I'd say 3/4 of the way would be close enough) and the same length as the hammer cylinder (simple right, don't worry I have no idea what I just said). With the correct valve tuning you should be able to get it to run well as long as you are within these variables (not considering hammer weight). I would want to try an over sized compressor with a shorter stroke but the same (slightly larger) volume than the hammer (perhaps this is overkill). It seems like it would be easier to manage the crankshaft of the shorter cylinder anyway. But would you loose torque necessary to keep the compressor up to speed? Huh... No, that really shouldn't be a big deal as long as the motor is up to it. To deal with hammer weight, this is where studying commercial hammers and bench top experimenting with some small cylinders and junk piping might become very helpful. For the most part these experiments should not require any machining of intricate parts, but just fab work and creativity. Some ball valves, copper tubing, check valves, pressure release valve, old cylinders, some weight for the hammer and some sort of rig to hold it would probably do the trick. All I'd need is to see the action and get some numbers. Then scaling it up should not be too big of a problem. I scaled up a Hiller/Lockwood pulse jet (a lot) by experimenting and number crunching, this shouldn't be too much different. Although now that I remember that project took me a couple of years..... I must be crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Does anyone have a link to the Hammer that Pelgrom has built? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Does anyone have a link to the Hammer that Pelgrom has built? http://www.anvilfire.com/power/jyh/pelgroms/be-jyh.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavala Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Anvilfire.com. Junk yard hammer page http://anvilfire.com/power/ beat me to it Sam. I saw you had toyed with this idea in the past, did you ever make any progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I thought of it, then bought my Anyang and never looked back I had the idea of building one with air cylinders off the shelf, but the valving was too confusing for me. Also, I would build a hammer like the helve hammer I am building, MUCH cooler I am all for building your own powerhammer, but sure is dang nice to just run one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I agree as well. Unfortunately, I am in a bit of a financial crisis and every penny I have needs to go to my bills (medical bills, I'll be moving soon-unwillingly among other things). If I was a full time smith I would say that a power hammer of some sort would be an absolute necessity. Since I now have a typical 9-5, it's hard to justify it at this moment in my life. Quite honestly I should just buckle down and do it. I could get a lot more work done and get better profits for my time. Perhaps I could even go full time. I completely agree that to make money you have to have the right tools. Some of my products were under priced and I have raised my prices recently to justify the work being done. The fun thing is that the higher prices haven't really slowed things down much. Maybe I'll just raise prices again and start saving for those right tools to make more money. Thanks for the awakening... Ordinarily, I am a big proponent of mechanichal hammers...Interesting thread, but if you are serious, build a small air hammer. Small, 'cause it will still be faster and easier than hand hammering, Small because you will not need as much air to run it, small because the materials will be MUCH cheaper and more readily available. Forget the self-contained fantasy till you are in a position to persue it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 This subject has come up several times, so I did the work for you.The drawings are thanks to Frosty who pointed them out on another thread . http://www.google.com/patents?id=lF5kAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent+707246&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=patent%20707246&f=false. I don't know if there to scale and didn't read any of the text but it doesn't look that complicated. like I said the subject comes up allot and I haven't seen any follow through. I hope you go for it and share all your findings. Btw I read somewhere I guy named Mark Krause wrote a manual on building self contained hammers I don't know if their still available. I found Mark Krause's e-mail and have asked him for info on his book he wrote. If I find anything out I'll let everyone know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Ordinarily, I am a big proponent of mechanichal hammers...Interesting thread, but if you are serious, build a small air hammer. Small, 'cause it will still be faster and easier than hand hammering, Small because you will not need as much air to run it, small because the materials will be MUCH cheaper and more readily available. Forget the self-contained fantasy till you are in a position to persue it. Honestly, I opened this discussion more for discussion for future reference. I really plan on building a "Tire Hammer" and maybe doing research/experimentation with the self contained hammers. I'd really like to have a good air hammer someday, but I don't have a good air compressor and I can build a tire hammer for pretty cheap right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Sorry mate, my mistake. I forgot your hammer's fed from the air compressor. Oops. Mind you, I still think it may be possible to apply the design of the hammer piston part of yours to a self comtained PH design as from the conversation it seems the valving is the hardest bit? all good, looking at http://www.google.com/patents?id=lF5kAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent+707246&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=patent%20707246&f=true, easy enough, need a bigger lung in diam than the cylinder and arrange adjustable stroke on the lung to tune. valving no probs if any. large area lung keeps the heat down by the looks, if you are capable of the mechanics, and can do the large hosing ie: re hole the ram for flow and volume, and housing, give it a go. Just do it till you get it right. and again on the worth having one? yep. or no one would want one. pair of tongs in a few mins? more to the point, 5 to 7 sets of tongs in an hour? i made a mechanical hammer from scrap, the only thing i had to buy was the bearing ends. if you do the diff of a car thing, you wont even need them. if you have kerb side dump outs, get an old washing machine for motor etc. Honestly, I opened this discussion more for discussion for future reference. I really plan on building a "Tire Hammer" and maybe doing research/experimentation with the self contained hammers. I'd really like to have a good air hammer someday, but I don't have a good air compressor and I can build a tire hammer for pretty cheap right now. the sooner you make it the better. you will love it, keep in mind in your design,,,the die holders and sets. I would encourage anyone with common sense and respect of safety to have a go... (ya dont want heavy bits flying around the shed if it comes apart, if your the type that injures yourself at the thought of a hammer or drill or screwdriver, or have lost a finger with a hand hack saw....give it a miss.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsartell Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 I really like the idea of using cheap tubing and greased rope seals. It wouldn't be that hard to mock up the basic operation with scrap pipe, wood, greased rope and junk steel. It wouldn't need to be all that strong as long as you didn't plan on beating anything with it. You could even run the motor on a dimmer switch and keep the RPM's low and once you get the valving close, crank it up unit destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 yep, the old man told me about that, the old machinery type seals and oil drippers etc, so i jammed twisted old string doped with grease and and sandwitched it around the piston shaft. it worked for me. and as for is it worth having one....this was about 2 and a half hrs this morning, two pair of double pick up reins 80 cm tot and two hammers, and a piece of spring flattened for a blade billet oh and the hammer drift tool thing about foot and a half from 32mm 4140... probly slow for some of the blokes on here but it kept me going, and i didnt have to lift a hammer.....yet...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTB Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Money can be a complex issue. I would have loved to have bought just about any new or used manufactured hammer but I just couldn't swing it financially. I chose the tire hammer route because an air hammer seemed a bit too complex and expensive for my first home built hammer project. While the Appalachian hammer is less expensive and complex to build, I just didn't care for the design as much. So although strapped for cash I orderd a orderd a set of plans from Clay Spencer and didn't look back. If you ultimately want a tire hammer I would suggest that you begin scrounging materials. Anoher indivdual on this forum just finished his tire hammer on a budget without any plans. I probably like the idea of an air hammer as much as you but I just spent nine weeks of spare time building my tire hammer on a shoestring and it works like a champ. Now I am going to concentrate on learning to use my hammer effectively. If there is an air hammer sometime in my future, so be it. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.