Treadle Hammer - you're probably not surprised I have my own ideas

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Here's a video of a treadle hammer I built 15 or so years ago. It's been in daily use for most of that time. Notice how low the treadle is, not 2 feet in the air like some I see too often.

[Mainely,Bob]

It`s been said before but it bears repeating,"You da man.Grant"!

Now that I see it on video I have to wonder how we got away from that "whip" principle that makes all the difference in a mechanical hammer when building a treadle hammer.
Good to know at least one of us was kept his common sense.At least a little of it.
OK,at least one of us still has some STOCK.

For those of us with cut on knees and feet this will be an excellent jump off point.
Thanks for posting it.

You giving this one up because your Iron Kiss 75 is in the mail?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

For some reason I was into treadle hammers at the time. The second iteration of this became the KA-75. I started sketching a guided treadle hammer and large rods became too heavy so I started thinking of using tubes. Well, then I realized I could put air to those tubes.........and the rest is history.

No, I gave that hammer to Darryl shortly after I built it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Why indeed! Almost everything in the last twenty years has it's roots in the hammer shown in Otto Schmerler's book. But he didn't use it for forging, it was just a third hand for leaf and sheet metal stuff.

If you look at 19th century "olivers" you'll see that they understood the principle of recovering the energy from the up stroke to start it on the next down stroke.

[Bob S]

I have to wonder how we got away from that "whip" principle that makes all the difference in a mechanical hammer when building a treadle hammer.

Good question. I have wondered the same thing. I think it was something about the arc the 'swingarm' type hammers have which is more of an advantage than a problem. The 'straight line' type hammers came out and suddenly they were the standard.

I've been happy with my Clay Spencer type hammer.

[nonjic]

That looks like it would actually be a pleasure to use ! B)

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

You got it John! It's got a rhythm to it that is very easy working. Look at the video of the "straight-line hammer" that was posted here last week. Does what it was designed to do and quite elegant, but notice he can't seem to get any speed out of it, no real "thump" to it.

[youngdylan]

Thanks for that Grant .... looks like I'll be modifying my treadle (when i get time) . It use parallelogram arms but they're rigid. I also like the use of the compression spring, biggest problem I had building mine was sourcing suitable tension springs. Ended up distorting (cold) the ends of a motorcycle shock spring so I could use it in tension.

[BryanWillman]

I've been reading "pounding out profits" and it seems pretty clear that essentially all successful mechanical hammers had some kind of "spring" or "damping" to them. (As would steam hammers and pneumatic hammers when the valving is right.)

Sometimes (apparently, Grant can comment) this spring arose partly out of some natural property of material - particularly wood, or leaf springs. Other times some elaborate mechanism was assembled.

Grant, I don't suppose you have a drawing of that hammer?

[Jason M]

It's interesting to see another unique design out there. I like it. I'm curious as to how much the head weighs. It appears to be light weight (25-50lbs) which would make sense as to why you would want to get speed out of it for heavier work. I designed my straight line hammer with an approx. 100 lb hammer on it which requires little speed. The momentum of the weight does the work. If I were to have stomped the treadle hard on my hammer in the video it would have gone faster and made a much deeper impression in the steel. It's too bad there is not a universal treadle hammer test out there to show the capabilities of the different designs out there other than a "thump" test. P.S. Mine thumps too :D

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

There is nothing out there like that thwap, thwap, thwapp, no matter what hammer you are using!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Sorry if I came across as slamming you design at all, I'm quite impressed with the design and the execution. Looks well put together. Mine is 75 pound. I have to agree that your weight does make up for the speed to a degree. You could easily incorporate my toggle linkage which also acts as a top travel stop. The advantage of a toggle is the acceleration it give. It has a variable mechanical advantage. Notice the actual throw of the foot treadle is only about 6 inches.

[Mainely,Bob]

It's interesting to see another unique design out there. I like it. I'm curious as to how much the head weighs. It appears to be light weight (25-50lbs) which would make sense as to why you would want to get speed out of it for heavier work. I designed my straight line hammer with an approx. 100 lb hammer on it which requires little speed. The momentum of the weight does the work. If I were to have stomped the treadle hard on my hammer in the video it would have gone faster and made a much deeper impression in the steel. It's too bad there is not a universal treadle hammer test out there to show the capabilities of the different designs out there other than a "thump" test. P.S. Mine thumps too

That "whip" does several things it seems to me.It uses inertia and the potential energy stored in the springs to hit as hard as a much heavier hammer head while not having to overcome the spring forces needed to lift that heavy head.Thus less fatigue in the powering leg.
Another thing it does is that when the hammer hits there`s still some give or travel in the treadle so less impact and shock transferred thru the foot and leg.
The linkage and spring assembly allow for a more ergonomic work stance and movement while the covered compression spring adds a lot more safety than those long extension springs even if they`re contained by a safety cable.
Seems like Grant`s hammer would be a lot easier to convert over to power too.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

You should have seen all the spring hammers I saw in Europe.

[Jason M]

Sorry if I came across as slamming you design at all, I'm quite impressed with the design and the execution. Looks well put together. Mine is 75 pound. I have to agree that your weight does make up for the speed to a degree. You could easily incorporate my toggle linkage which also acts as a top travel stop. The advantage of a toggle is the acceleration it give. It has a variable mechanical advantage. Notice the actual throw of the foot treadle is only about 6 inches.

No I didn't take it that way at all. Thanks for the compliment. I just took the opportunity to theorize and comment on our designs. I'm always under the assumption that there are newbies out there looking for build information just like I was. I agree with you 100% on your treadle travel being comfortably short. I noticed the same long travel on some hammers out there when I started to design mine and wanted to make sure I kept mine ergonomically short. Mine treadle travels 9-10 inches which so far seems good.

[BryanWillman]

Bryan's Rule of Machine and Tool Evaluation applies:

"If it works, and is safe, it is a good thing."

How much gain (if any?) is there to a treadle hammer traveling in a purely straight line? (Seems like it's better, but does it matter in much hammer work? My arm doesn't work that way...)

How much gain is there to the ram being guided?

(One would think purely guided maximally straight is the bee's knees, but apparently helves work way better than a naive person like me would think.... )

[Jason M]

That "whip" does several things it seems to me.It uses inertia and the potential energy stored in the springs to hit as hard as a much heavier hammer head while not having to overcome the spring forces needed to lift that heavy head.Thus less fatigue in the powering leg.
Another thing it does is that when the hammer hits there`s still some give or travel in the treadle so less impact and shock transferred thru the foot and leg.
The linkage and spring assembly allow for a more ergonomic work stance and movement while the covered compression spring adds a lot more safety than those long extension springs even if they`re contained by a safety cable.
Seems like Grant`s hammer would be a lot easier to convert over to power too.

I wondered the same thing while watching other videos whether or not shock was being transferred to the operators leg. The way Grant's is set up definitely removes the shock. I don't get a shock when operating mine which I think is due to the way the linkage indirectly pulls the hammer down. I hear you on the extension springs. It's a quick easy way for builders to get the counter force needed but somewhat scary as far as failure potential no matter what safety containment is used. As far as converting to a power hammer do you mean adding an air cylinder to the treadle? I actually thought of adding that option to mine as I have an air cylinder available. I haven't looked into it fully yet.

[Mainely,Bob]

As far as converting to a power hammer do you mean adding an air cylinder to the treadle? I actually thought of adding that option to mine as I have an air cylinder available. I haven't looked into it fully yet.

I would think the short throw of the toggle type linkage would allow a short throw crankshaft to be used as well as an air cylinder.The crankshaft powered by an electric motor and simple clutch would be an easier approach than the air cylinder and associated valving/linkage assembly for most folks.
I wonder how the pin system holding the dies would hold up under power.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I'd way prefer Jason's linkage to guides. As I said in the video, you got very little power to begin with, don't waste it. My anvil starts with a 10" round then two 8 X 8 blocks and at the bottom is 24" diameter 2" plate. Guides are another power robber, some more than others. With 4 foot swing arms, mine comes down straight enough for me. Heck, my hand hammer ain't guided any better!

In the end, it's a balancing act of many conflicting factors; speed, weight, force and resistance, control and effort, fatigue and ease of working. Then again, like Jason, sometimes we want to do something different and see if it's better.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Boy that WOULD be pretty easy to do. And there is enough flex in the arms already. If I did that I'd probably keep it down to 120 blows per minute, a nice lazy speed. Dang Bob, I might have to do that!

[Mainely,Bob]

Boy that WOULD be pretty easy to do. And there is enough flex in the arms already. If I did that I'd probably keep it down to 120 blows per minute, a nice lazy speed. Dang Bob, I might have to do that!

There`s a post on AllMetalShaping that has pics of a wood framed helve hammer using a modified tire hammer clutch system powering a wheelbarrow wheel that sets the speed to just 120 BPM.You can also feather it for less speed and single blows IIRC.All it needs is a simple brake.
Seems custom made for this application.Maybe I`ll have to put some of those parts I`ve been collecting to use now.

[Jason M]

I would think the short throw of the toggle type linkage would allow a short throw crankshaft to be used as well as an air cylinder.The crankshaft powered by an electric motor and simple clutch would be an easier approach than the air cylinder and associated valving/linkage assembly for most folks.
I wonder how the pin system holding the dies would hold up under power.

The reason I had considered adding power to mine was to see if it would be possible to make a functional yet short stroke pedal to operate the hammer. You've got my wheels turning though as far as an alternative air system that would cyle it like a power hammer. I always thought it would be cool to built a power hammer and will eventually do so. I've always been fascinated by the colemancontrol system on YouTube although I will probably build a mechanical hammer so I don't have to listen to my little compressor running.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Lotta treadle hammers out there would benefit from just replacing the pull rod from the treadle to the hammer with a spring, or maybe a rod and spring. Need to be pretty stiff, but it would allow you to push the treadle down while the ram accelerates. And take some of the shock out of the treadle.

[Bryce Masuk]

here are a few shots of helmuts treadle hammer

it has plenty of whip that's for sure

the pedal has a decent length of push and you are pretty connected with it

none the less it works good

he said he filled the bottom pipe with concrete and it all shattered and fell out

the top is a water drilling bit welded into a pipe

[Dodge]

Grant,
I'm really intrigued with the design! I was seriously looking at a treadle or a powered version like a Depew helve. My concern however, is space. I am very limited which why I opted for the Spencer type tire hammer. Mine has a 18" x 24" foot print. I wonder if your design could be shortened up and perhaps a softer spring be incorporated and achieve the same whip action on a smaller foot print? Cool hammer BTW!!