Post Vise

[mvflaim]

Hi all,

I'm a brand new member here. I'm a long time woodworker who is intertested in learning blacksmithing so I can incorporate metal into my furniture that I build. I just started to acquire tools and bought a post vise at an auction last weekend. My question is; is the bottom of the vise supposed to touch the floor when installed on a bench? I have been scrolling through pics on this forum and noticed that some of the photos show the vise not touching the ground.

Thanks
Mike

[Mainely,Bob]

The whole point of having a leg vise is to have the leg in firm contact with the ground.
If that doesn`t happen then you just have a bench vise with a redundant leg hanging off of it.
That leg transfers the impact of beating on the vise to the floor.Without firm contact to the floor whatever the vise is attached to has to absorb that impact.With heavy use you may have a hard time keeping the vise tight to the bench or whatever else supports it.Either the wedges or the hardware can work loose due to repeated impact.

[Countryboy39067]

The purpose of a post vise it to absorb heavy impact so it is necessary for the leg to rest on a solid plate. The plate can be part of the stand in the case of using a portable vise mount. I don't have a way to post pics because I used my iPhone for all of my Internet usage. My vise is mounted on a post set in the dirt floor of my shop. Your vise should have a spike of sorts on the long downward leg. Mine did not so I forged a tire iron to fit the socket and let it rest on a metal plate sunk into the concrete poured around the post. I hope this helps and good luck!!!

[mvflaim]

Thanks for the replies. I thought it was suppose to touch the ground but when i saw pics of some of them not touching, I got confused.

Mike

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Mike, glad to have ya!

As already said the leg should be in solid contact with the ground or a reasonably immobile plate. The pic I've attached is my folding portable leg vise, you can just see the bottom of the leg on the far side. The leg sockets into a piece of flange down channel iron that welds to the main support post. This is NOT an ideal way to mount a leg vise but it shows the bottom of the leg and it works pretty well for me at demos. It needs a little tweeking, mainly some feet on the bottom of the folding tripod legs with a hole in them so I can spike it to the ground. As this one stands it is only tolerable for hammering and needs a foot on the base for bending or really HOT iron abending.

My shop leg vise is mounted similarly with flange down channel under the leg but it's on a heavy duty steel bench and works well. A little sledge hammer action moves the bench but not too annoyingly and NOT dangerously.

Leg vises aren't the best for bench type hand work like filing, taping, etc. They were designed to take heavy hammering and bending, delicate just isn't in their vocabulary.

As a wood worker an aspect of blacksmithing you're going to find deep satisfaction in is the ability to make your own tools. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a cove blade for a plane at True Value? The guys here can tell you how good it feels to use tools you've made with your own hands. It's a huge ego boost to run into a problem, forge the solution and put paid to the "problem." Problem? THAT was a "problem? HAH!

Again, welcome aboard.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Mike, glad to have ya!

As already said the leg should be in solid contact with the ground or a reasonably immobile plate. The pic I've attached is my folding portable leg vise, you can just see the bottom of the leg on the far side. The leg sockets into a piece of flange down channel iron that welds to the main support post. This is NOT an ideal way to mount a leg vise but it shows the bottom of the leg and it works pretty well for me at demos. It needs a little tweeking, mainly some feet on the bottom of the folding tripod legs with a hole in them so I can spike it to the ground. As this one stands it is only tolerable for hammering and needs a foot on the base for bending or really HOT iron abending.

My shop leg vise is mounted similarly with flange down channel under the leg but it's on a heavy duty steel bench and works well. A little sledge hammer action moves the bench but not too annoyingly and NOT dangerously.

Leg vises aren't the best for bench type hand work like filing, taping, etc. They were designed to take heavy hammering and bending, delicate just isn't in their vocabulary.

As a wood worker an aspect of blacksmithing you're going to find deep satisfaction in is the ability to make your own tools. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a cove blade for a plane at True Value? The guys here can tell you how good it feels to use tools you've made with your own hands. It's a huge ego boost to run into a problem, forge the solution and put paid to the "problem." Problem? THAT was a "problem? HAH!

Again, welcome aboard.

Frosty the Lucky.

[junker]

my mentor just went to alro metals and bought a circular piece of drop about two inches thick and about 2 1/2ft wide. he then welded a 4in square tube off center and mounted his post vice on that and the drop, that way he can roll it around when he needs to move it but it's plenty heavy not to move.

[Dave Leppo]

As stated, the leg should be setting on the floor, BUT, if possible, don't let the floor dictate the height of the vise. I have two leg vises in my shop, large and medium sized. the medium sized is setting on a steel plate at about the level of the floor, the larger is setting on a steel plate about 8" below the level of the floor, to put the top of the jaws at around anvil height for better hammering ergonomics. How did I do this? I have a dirt / gravel floor and both vice legs set in holes that are in the middle of steel plates, the larger one is buried below the surface. If you have a concrete floor, you may not want or be able to do this. I personally would not consider cutting off the leg of a very old vice to achieve a lower mounting height, but that’s your choice.

[mvflaim]

As a wood worker an aspect of blacksmithing you're going to find deep satisfaction in is the ability to make your own tools. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a cove blade for a plane at True Value? The guys here can tell you how good it feels to use tools you've made with your own hands. It's a huge ego boost to run into a problem, forge the solution and put paid to the "problem." Problem? THAT was a "problem? HAH!

Again, welcome aboard.

Frosty the Lucky.

[mvflaim]

As stated, the leg should be setting on the floor, BUT, if possible, don't let the floor dictate the height of the vise. I have two leg vises in my shop, large and medium sized. the medium sized is setting on a steel plate at about the level of the floor, the larger is setting on a steel plate about 8" below the level of the floor, to put the top of the jaws at around anvil height for better hammering ergonomics. How did I do this? I have a dirt / gravel floor and both vice legs set in holes that are in the middle of steel plates, the larger one is buried below the surface. If you have a concrete floor, you may not want or be able to do this. I personally would not consider cutting off the leg of a very old vice to achieve a lower mounting height, but that’s your choice.

Hi Dave,

on average, how high should the vise be attached from the floor. Is it to your knuckles like an anvil?

[ThomasPowers]

Depends on what type of work you will be doing on it!

Heavy slugging with a hammer == lower
Lots of filing == top slightly below elbow height
Holding lots of fixtures == lower
etc
and so on.

Post vises come naturally in a range of heights and it's nice to have several around the shop at different heights.

[Frosty]

Sorry about the picless double post earlier, I tried fixing the first one but like so often . . . <Sigh>

Anyway, Mike I'm sure you've seen the "Woodwright's Shop", Roy Underhill makes chisels, plane knives, hardware and such fairly frequently, often with the help of local smiths including Peter Ross. Roy and Peter used to work together at Colonial Williamsburg, different shops of course but mutually supporting.

The point here is you can find episodes of "The Woodwright's Shop" on PBS's web site. Sorry I don't have the link handy but it's easy to find with a little looking. Watching Peter Ross smith and do hand metal work is a treat and education but watching Roy make specialty tools is a lesson in minimalist, effective, quick and dirty, smithing.

By quick and dirty I don't mean it's poor work, I mean it lacks some of the special bits a pro might feel important. The other bit is in the early episodes Roy's anvil was a length of RR rail about 14" long for the weight. Later he acquired a "proper" anvil, leg vise and basic tools though he uses a pretty short list making what he needs.

If you have and take the time to go looking through old episodes of "The Woodwright's Shop" and run across the episode Roy makes a log sledge or the one where he Irons a freight wagon, Please let me know I saw those years ago but would love to have copies for repeating reviews.

Frosty the Lucky.

[mvflaim]

I'm a big fan of Roy. I've been watching his show for the past twenty years, have all of his books and even met him a few times. You can watch episodes of his show here. http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2901.html I'm not sure if the episodes you're looking for are available online. I'm thinking those episodes may have been shot in the early '90's.

Mike

[Frosty]

Heck, I'm thinking the episodes were shot in the late 70's or early 80's but can't say for sure. I know it's been quite a while now.

When I work, I fall somewhere between Roy and Norm Abrams the New Yankee Workshop and HUGE power tool sponserships. I can do most by hand but would almost always prefer to have the latest greatest power tool. I have quite a few power tools but . . . Oh well.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Sam Thompson]

The leg doesn't need vertical support, it is there as a brace against bending and twisting forces. The energy of the blow is absorbed by the inertia of the mass of the vice. If you don't believe me, lie a post vice along the floor and hold your hand against the bottom of the leg while someone hits the jaws with a large hammer. you won't feel much, if anything.

[youngdylan]

The leg doesn't need vertical support, it is there as a brace against bending and twisting forces. The energy of the blow is absorbed by the inertia of the mass of the vice. If you don't believe me, lie a post vice along the floor and hold your hand against the bottom of the leg while someone hits the jaws with a large hammer. you won't feel much, if anything.

same principle of mass and inertia applies when using a "floating" leg vice to set large rivets and tenons. I've got a vice with the leg cut off (gives better access) that I can lay on top of work led on the bench/trestles and clamp to the work when the mass of the bar being worked on isn't enough.

Indeed I've moved my other leg vice out of the work shop because of lack of space/ use. I've got a record #36 "mechanics vice" that has a small anvil as part of it so it's meant to take some hammering .... maybe not with sledges. It's taken years of beasting by me without fail and is much easier to use than a leg, also opens much wider and the jaws are easily replaced

[Mainely,Bob]

The leg doesn't need vertical support, it is there as a brace against bending and twisting forces. The energy of the blow is absorbed by the inertia of the mass of the vice. If you don't believe me, lie a post vice along the floor and hold your hand against the bottom of the leg while someone hits the jaws with a large hammer. you won't feel much, if anything.

Why would so many makers go to all that trouble and expense if the leg wasn`t needed?
I can tell you there was a noticeable difference between using one of those chipping hammers on something in a leg vise that was firmly anchored to the floor(in a steel socket)and the same type steel work table with a heavy bench vise attached.
I never had to chase the table the leg vise was attached to. :)

[Sam Thompson]

The leg is needed, it's to brace against bending and twisting; it also adds extra mass. The vice needs to be securely mounted but the leg transmits little, if any, of the hammer's impact into the ground. That's why, as youngdylan says, they are also used to grip and back-up long bars for rivetting into railings etc.

[Mainely,Bob]

The leg is needed, it's to brace against bending and twisting; it also adds extra mass. The vice needs to be securely mounted but the leg transmits little, if any, of the hammer's impact into the ground. That's why, as youngdylan says, they are also used to grip and back-up long bars for rivetting into railings etc.

A slow head like me is going to need a pic so I can try to understand how a leg vise will help as you are suggesting.Are you clamping it at some random point close to the work being done to add mass while you peen the work or are you actually backing some part of the work with the jaw?
Either way,what about an unsupported leg vise used in this fashion makes it superior to a heavy bench vise or a well supported leg vise.
I`m just not getting it.

Are you saying the leg is needed to resist twisting because of the way a leg vise is mounted to the bench?
I must be having one of those days.

[pkrankow]

The leg doesn't need vertical support, it is there as a brace against bending and twisting forces. The energy of the blow is absorbed by the inertia of the mass of the vice. If you don't believe me, lie a post vice along the floor and hold your hand against the bottom of the leg while someone hits the jaws with a large hammer. you won't feel much, if anything.

I am going to disagree with you on the ground contact for hammering. A lot of force is transmitted through to the ground that the inertial of the vise does not resist. As for using an unmounted vise as a means to quickly add mass for riveting, that is a good idea.

I admit that my post vise is ONLY 60 pounds, but a good hit with a larger hammer is going to transmit a lot of force that my table would not handle on its own. I PLAN on using a sledge hammer on it at times.

As for resisting rotation, you are pulling or pushing to twist, which is not always the most convenient direction, but does provide a very good lever for resisting.

Phil

[Sam Thompson]

If you put a large (0.75" or more)vertically in the jaws and pull the top half towards you the vice will tend to pivot around the cloverleaf bracket and is braced by the leg. If the bar is gripped horizontally and the free end pulled the vice will tend to twist about roughly the same point and will be held by the bolts etc. in the clover leaf. The bottom of the leg of my own six inch (I think!) vice is firmly held to the leg of the bench but isn't supported vertically and I regularly work 1"sq stock.

[Frosty]

The leg does resist bending forces and that may indeed be it's main purpose. Unless you're doing heavy hammering vertically downward, little force would be transmitted to the floor.

Peining even pretty large rivets doesn't need a heavy hammer, I've used a 32oz ball pein on 1/2" rivets and it worked nicely. However, I also take not only my 3lb single jack but my 8lb double jack sledge to work in it. Without the leg not only would the vise walk all over but it could bend or break the mounting bracket. That's working vertical down.

I've also done heavy work horizontally against the front jaw. I admit I don't know the specific names for a leg vise's jaws so I'll explain my terminology. Front/rear. In a typical working position relative to the vise you stand facing the screw handle or bench so taking the operator's orientation as the precedent that makes the screw, handle and that jaw the back of the vise. That's how I'm facing so that's the vise's orientation. I most certainly could be wrong about this but to make instructions clear to students I use this way of determining direction on all tools and equipment.

So, having driven with the 8lb sledge horizontally against the "front" (bench side) jaw, the leg most certainly prevents the vise from moving and possibly damaging the vise or bench. Twisting or bending long stock will impart similar forces requiring the stabilizing action of the leg.

I don't think the only purpose of the leg is to prevent bending and twisting but it is significant.

Frosty the Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I generally use the terms "moving jaw" and "stationary jaw" for the leg vise.

[youngdylan]

A slow head like me is going to need a pic so I can try to understand how a leg vise will help as you are suggesting.Are you clamping it at some random point close to the work being done to add mass while you peen the work or are you actually backing some part of the work with the jaw?
Either way,what about an unsupported leg vise used in this fashion makes it superior to a heavy bench vise or a well supported leg vise.
I`m just not getting it.

Are you saying the leg is needed to resist twisting because of the way a leg vise is mounted to the bench?
I must be having one of those days.

Bob, sorry the pictures not the most informative but if you look t top left you'll see the jaws of the vice where its grips the bar with tenon. The whole work is too large to use the vice when it is fixed vertical, hence used "loose" and used "free"and led on the work on the bench. Makes a big difference cos there aint much mass in the bar.

[youngdylan]

This photo from one of Peter Parkinson's books makes it clearer. Sorry about the size, I usually size photos before posting but the computer is playing silly b***ers