Two-sided Tapers

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Here are some pictures I took the other day to illustrate two-sided tapers. I am not a knife maker, but I thought a knife would be a good example of displacing metal with two-sided tapers. When forging, it is usually best to start with material that is farthest from the shape that you want to end up with. A knife is basically tapers just like most forge work. These pictures show how to devide up the material with half-hammer faced blows near and far perpindicular to each other, and 180 degrees when you change from near to far side of your anvil. Then the two-side taper parallel to each other to draw the tang and the blade in both axises. Setting yourself up on the diamond or diagonal reduces quite a bit of surface area.

[ironstein]

Awesome! It almost looks like a tong blank at the start. As usual you say so little but show so much! I just finished a damascus billet and was thinking about starting a knife after i make spurs out of the billet. I will try what you've shown.

[ironstein]

Lemme guess, you did all that in one heat, but slowed it down to take pictures for this demo? I think of you and Karen everytime i'm in the forge my friend. Tell her hello for me. At some point, maybe in the fall, i am gonna spring for a personal class with you if you are around.
Brian

[archiphile]

Here are some pictures I took the other day to illustrate two-sided tapers. I am not a knife maker, but I thought a knife would be a good example of displacing metal with two-sided tapers. When forging, it is usually best to start with material that is farthest from the shape that you want to end up with. A knife is basically tapers just like most forge work. These pictures show how to divide up the material with half-hammer faced blows near and far perpendicular to each other, and 180 degrees when you change from near to far side of your anvil. Then the two-side taper parallel to each other to draw the tang and the blade in both axises. Setting yourself up on the diamond or diagonal reduces quite a bit of surface area.

Man that is really amazing work Brian. When we discussed this over the phone I had a little bit of a time visualizing it. No problems now.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Lemme guess, you did all that in one heat, but slowed it down to take pictures for this demo? I think of you and Karen everytime i'm in the forge my friend. Tell her hello for me. At some point, maybe in the fall, i am gonna spring for a personal class with you if you are around.
Brian

No, it took a few heats. Karen put somemore pictures on picasa of these knife steps starting with the cut. This was made from 11/16" coil spring using only 4" of the material.

Karen wants to know what you're thinking of the rest of the time.

We'll be around, just not as close as we were last year. We're in Brandon, Mississippi now, and you're welcome any time. Clinton and Dora are coming by a few days before the ABANA Conference in June. The Miss. Forge Council has their Spring Conference the weekend before the ABANA Conference.

[pkrankow]

One thing I would like to see is a video of you working, but back so we can see how you stand, where you stand at the anvil, and how you swing your hammer.

As always impressive work, very clear photo essay of the steps. I need more forge time to try all this stuff!
Phil

[ironstein]

Let Karen know that the rest of the time i am thinking about whatever project is at hand and trying to be more efficient at the anvil! That or scheming, trying to figure out how i'm going to convince the wife i should buy another blacksmithing tool! You truly inspired me Brian. I can only hope to someday be able to dedicate all of my time to this fantastic craft.

[Mark Wargo New2bs]

Brian, I'm trying to follow your forging steps here...it looks like you started with perpendicular half hammer face blows on the near side round dies to isolate, then moved to 180 degree from your original isolation with half hammer face blows on the far side round dies. Then did you move back a bit with perpendicular half hammer face blows on the far side round dies, or did you do the angled hits over the far side square dies first?

Mark

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Brian, I'm trying to follow your forging steps here...it looks like you started with perpendicular half hammer face blows on the near side round dies to isolate, then moved to 180 degree from your original isolation with half hammer face blows on the far side round dies. Then did you move back a bit with perpendicular half hammer face blows on the far side round dies, or did you do the angled hits over the far side square dies first?

Mark

I started with the far side of the anvil half hammer faced blows with a fullering or rounding face of my hammer angled like you said with a two sided taper perpendicular to the first blow, then before I forged it down to my predetermined final dimension I switched to half hammer faced blows on the near side of my anvil with my fullering or rounding face of my hammer perpindicular and 180 degrees from the first two shoulders that I set.

I just got in from the Mississippi Conference, and it is late, but I will respond more fully with pictures to show what happens to the metal when you do this and what you do after that after the conference is over and I bring my station back home.

Thank you, Mark, for asking.

Brian

[MattBower]

What is a half faced hammer blow?

[Svarttrost]

Half faced hammer blow means striking so that the hammer face is half on half off the anvil, as if you'd be trying to hit the anvil edge dead on.

[Jreed]

Half faced hammer blow means striking so that the hammer face is half on half off the anvil, as if you'd be trying to hit the anvil edge dead on.

Ah I had been wondering the same thing. Thanks for the explanation.

[Dan P.]

When forging, it is usually best to start with material that is farthest from the shape that you want to end up with.

Orthodoxy is challenged in this statement!

[Mainely,Bob]

Orthodoxy is challenged in this statement!

Maybe it should read "To avoid repeated trimming,it is usually best to start with material furthest from...".
The idea,I think, is to end up with the shape you want and to move all the metal not used for that shape back as you go rather than to start closest to and then have to trim the excess from both ends(and sometimes from the middle too).
Those of you who can plan the metal you need for a project down to the gram and move it just where it needs to be on the first hit every time can disregard my thoughts entirely.I speak only from my own DA experiences.

[MattBower]

Half faced hammer blow means striking so that the hammer face is half on half off the anvil, as if you'd be trying to hit the anvil edge dead on.

Ah, gotcha. I'm familiar with the technique; I just never knew it was called that.

When forging, it is usually best to start with material that is farthest from the shape that you want to end up with.

I took this to mean that when you're working on a project, start by forging out the metal that's going to need to move the farthest -- i.e., the first thing you forge should be the part of the project that's farthest from the shape of your starting stock. Is that right?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

MattBower, I was reffering to starting with round stock instead of flat bar for a knife, or square stock for a stap hinge instead of flat bar. Spoons, spatulas, and shovels made from one piece of solid stock are also made more efficiently starting with square stock rather than flat bar. Starting on the diamond or diagonal sets you up with less surface area contact and the edges are already there because of the diagonal in the horizontal plane.

Mark, I just got back from the ABANA Conference and haven't had time to take anymore pictures and probably won't for sometime, because I have another class this weekend at the Ag. Museum that I have to get ready for. Sorry. I would like to make a video of this because it can make anyone's forgings so much more efficient and simple. Most of my work is using this and other related half-hammer faced blows.

[MattBower]

Thanks for clarifying that, Brian. I was way off!

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Thanks for clarifying that, Brian. I was way off!

You are very welcome, and thak you for asking the quetions.

[Mainely,Bob]

MattBower, I was reffering to starting with round stock instead of flat bar for a knife, or square stock for a stap hinge instead of flat bar. Spoons, spatulas, and shovels made from one piece of solid stock are also made more efficiently starting with square stock rather than flat bar. Starting on the diamond or diagonal sets you up with less surface area contact and the edges are already there because of the diagonal in the horizontal plane.

I also completely misunderstood apparently.
Could you speak a little more on this?
If you were making a shovel it would seem that starting with plate would be better use of time but you know far more than most of us so...
Would starting a shovel(or any other flat thin project) with solid bar have anything to do with being able to shape the metal to follow your intent rather than start with something you feel is half way there(plate) and having the stock dictate your approach?

[MattBower]

Good questions, Bob. And not to sidetrack this thread, but on a related note, Brian, I watched your tong forging video this weekend. (I say it's "related" because that process uses a lot of half faced blows, too.) It sure is impressive to me to watch how easily and expertly you move metal around. Is the hammer you used in that video a straight pein? And how much does it weigh?

Coming back to this thread, I just want to clarify that all the shoulders in the first post in this thread were made freehand over the edge of the anvil. Right?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Good questions, Bob. And not to sidetrack this thread, but on a related note, Brian, I watched your tong forging video this weekend. (I say it's "related" because that process uses a lot of half faced blows, too.) It sure is impressive to me to watch how easily and expertly you move metal around. Is the hammer you used in that video a straight pein? And how much does it weigh?

Coming back to this thread, I just want to clarify that all the shoulders in the first post in this thread were made freehand over the edge of the anvil. Right?

I just lost everything that I wrote responding to Mainely,Bob's post, so I'll try again.

Two-sided tapers on round or square stock set you up on the diamond where the shoulders that you create are even on both sides when held on the diagonal or diamond. In the case of the shovel, which is an extreme lateral draw, there will be very little surface area contact with the anvil and hammer when you place the material that you isolated on the anvil. You can maintain less surface area contact by employing a crosspeen in a paralell direction to your material. This creates constant highs and lows from the beginning until the end when you decide to planish the material. Flat bar starts with much more surface area contact that allows the anvil to wick away the heat.

Matt, the hammer in the video has a 3" diameter fuller and weighs 3.1 pounds. It is the first hammer that I made for myself. Most of my work is done with that surface, and the shouders were done freehanded on the edges of the anvil.

[MattBower]

Thanks, Brian. That's what I thought. My shoulders wouldn't look that good if I'd used a hardy fuller or a guillotine. You've done this before, haven't you?

I'm actually suprised the hammer isn't a little heavier. It looks heavier, judging by the way the steel moves under it.

[Dan P.]

The logic is clearer to me now, Brian, but I am still skeptical of the idea that the time spent drawing down from square or round stock will be less than that lost in re-heating flat stock due to contact with the anvil.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Try it. Start small with 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4", and then 1" square stock. You'll never know until you try. Don't believe everything you read. You'll have to see things through your own experiences, but I know where you're coming from. I'm skeptical, too, until I see things for myself.

[dgk]

When you are making a ring or bracelet from round bar, do you square the end before isolating and forming the two sided taper? I tried my first ring an ended up with a bracelet sized leaf. Since I was working from the round, my leaf has a round top.