18th cent. candle holder

[chichi]

There is an ebay item #130371563669 which is for a very nicely forged spiked candle holder. I am sorry I could not paste the link because of computer ignorance. The connection (weld) of the flat stock candle holder section to the spike is a little hard to figure out. Is this a "t" weld or jump weld (Not sure if there is a difference)? Could someone explain how the items were scarfed . The connection is nice and thick and I would like to do same.Was this done by the dreaded upsetting of the rod?
Could the flat stock have been split and spread out along the spike shaft?
The rest of the project seems to be a straightforward weld of a bent rod unless I am missing that too.
Thanks for the help. I believe a similar item is in an historical fur trading building at Villa Louis in Prarie Du Chien Wi.

[Wind Chapman]

Try to make one with playdough first. Start out with a ribbon and a round. I think your guess will be as good as anyone else's then. :~)

[Frank Turley]

Mighty suspicious. In my opinion, it was made yesterday with an ugly oxy-acetylene weld, and the scroll welded to the bottom should have a nice "vanishing point," a neat looking shut. Let's not forget that 18th century means it was made in the 1700's. "Show me. I'm from Missouri."

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[Glenn Gilmore]

Right on Frank. Your the man with the knowledge.

Glenn

[pkrankow]

The date and the price are suspicious, but here is my thought:
start with some flat and cut it, then form the spike, holder, scroll and driving end. I haven't worked out starting dimensions and such yet, but here's a pic of my thought. I'll try clay later today.

Please excuse the lousy artwork.

Phil

edit, sorry about the .bmp, here's a .jpg

[pkrankow]

Playing in clay:
1) start with 1/2 x 1 stock, 6 inches long.


2) Cut in half, 3 1/2 inches from one end and 1 inch from other end.


3)Bend clearance to work on each leg separately


4)round out spike portions, draw out point. Struck end will upset in use over time. Round scroll for handle and form scroll. It can be adjusted easily later, while the candle holder will be harder to adjust. The blob at the end off the black mat is just cut off clay.


5) Draw out candle holder to 12-13 inches in length. Its thickness will be about 3/16 thick. Drive down over corner of anvil to draw down inside, or use a monkey tool or flatter.


6) Roll candle holder either using Hofi's corkscrew method or using a 1 inch mandrel in the vise.


And as you see I have made something not entirely unlike the picture shown in the auction. I was able to create a feature like the inside of the holder at the spike, but the handle scroll is in the wrong place.

I took measurements of a candle stub in my house, and the picture on Ebay and came up with a 1/2 inch spike, 6 inches LOA, the bottom scroll is about 1/4 inch, and the width of the candle holder wraps are just over 1/2 inch.

The bottom scroll may be welded on, and the rest just one piece to get a more correct duplicate.

I did not do this with a hammer, I used my fingers. This was proof of concept.

Phil

[pkrankow]

I tried again with a different set of measurements and cuts in clay. I came up with something that puts the features in the correct spots, but my computer crashed while DLing the pics so I only have the first few showing the cutting.

The process illustrated is WRONG! the volumes are correct though. I will explain inline with the pics.

1) start with 5 inches of 1/2 x 1 stock. Mark on center at 1/2 inch from the end, 3 inches from the same end, and 3 1/2 inches from the same end at 1/4 inch from one edge.


2) this pic is problematic.
Shoulder up 1/2 inch of the end to form a 1/2x1/2x1 inch tenon, NOT the bend illustrated. The smaller end could be cut and bent as illustrated because it forms the scroll. It would be better to shoulder as well since in WROUGHT iron this would work the material against the grain. In mild it would not matter as long as you do not get a cold shut.


3) separate the legs to allow work space, draw out the scroll to 1/4 inch round, tapered, round up the driven end to 1/2 inch round. Form the spike. The LOA from spike tip to driven end is aprox. 6 inches.


Here is where my DL failed. no more pics. The process is the same as my previous set.

4) Draw out the material to form the candle holder 12-13 inches long, 1/2 inch wide, using the extra material you shouldered up.

5) Draw down to the spike using a corner on the anvil from the back side, a monkey tool, or a flatter.

6) Wrap the holder on a 1 inch mandrel.

Opinions or comments welcome.
Phil

[pkrankow]

HA! I still got something wrong! The wrap starts on the OTHER side from what I came up with! That may make it easier...

Phil

[thecelticforge]

HA! I still got something wrong! The wrap starts on the OTHER side from what I came up with! That may make it easier...

Phil

You go PK! All my playdough is rock hard :~(

[pkrankow]

You go PK! All my playdough is rock hard :~(

Go to Hobby Lobby or some other craft store and pick up some non-hardening modeling clay, often called plasticine. If you refrigerate it, and oil your anvil and hammer you can forge it like iron, but I am hand forming it.

I am going to try measuring 1 1/2 inches from each end, shouldering one to 1/2 inch, making it round, shouldering the other to 1/4x1/2 inch, then cutting that shoulder back 1 inch, while cutting a 1/4 inch strip off the other edge. That will leave 1/2 inch for the driven part, put the wrap for the candle holder starting on the correct side, and provide plenty of material to draw out properly. The features should be in the correct places.

My daughter woke up so play time is over and I need to figure out dinner.
Phil

[pkrankow]

I hope everybody has found me entertaining today. Last time in clay! I think I got it this time, but the dimensions need just a little tweeking. I'll explain in line again.

1) starting with 5 inches of 1/2x1 again.
I hope the marks show, they are at 1 1/2 inch, 2 inch (1/4 inch from bottom edge), 2 1/2 inch (1/4 inch from top edge), and 3 1/2 inch.
I should have put marks from the edge in, but didn't. I'll remember that for the future.


2) Draw down to the first mark using half face blows, form up 1/2 inch round, and draw a square point.


3) Flip around the stock and draw a shoulder using half face blows at the 3 1/2 inch mark. Draw the shoulder down to 1/4 inch, it can spread some from the 1/2 inch, but will need to be drawn/upset back in later.


4) Hot cut to continue the 1/4 inch shoulder to the 2 1/2 inch mark. This gives enough material to form the candle holder

While hot cutting, cut a 1/4 inch strip off the bottom to the 2 inch mark. It is better to be generous on this strip than thin because it forms the handle scroll. This is the tweeking I mentioned earlier, my cut was thin, so my scroll is smaller.


5) Draw the material cut to form the scroll to 1/4 round, taper and form the scroll. Form the driven end round.


6) Draw out the material to form the candle holder. Use half face blows, a monkey tool, or a flatter to draw to the spike. Form a flat ribbon 1/2 inch wide and 12-13 inches long. It will be about 3/16 thick.


7) bend over the strip for wrapping the candle holder 'away' as pictured, then wrap around a 1 inch mandrel to form the candle holder.


Clean up with a file.

This looks a lot like the pictures in the auction now doesn't it? No welding. When I finish my hot chisel (needs HT) I will give this a try since I have some 1/2x1 stock.

Phil

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I think that is great, pkrankow!

[pkrankow]

I think that is great, pkrankow!

Thanks Brian, this was fun. I hope to try it in steel either Saturday or or next week.

I did notice that I had a dimension wrong, the "from the edge" dimensions are both 1/4 inch, just from opposite edges. It is important for making the two cuts.

Phil

[chichi]

Thanks Brian, this was fun. I hope to try it in steel either Saturday or or next week.

I did notice that I had a dimension wrong, the "from the edge" dimensions are both 1/4 inch, just from opposite edges. It is important for making the two cuts.

Phil

Thanks Phil. I will try your method later in the week. I like your process for figuring out the steps. I have to get some clay. As others commented,I also thought the ebay piece looked like it had been welded using a torch or mig?

[John B]

Nice one Phil, thanks for the explanation, well done. But could you clarify this please. it is a terminology thing I think.

Can you explain in step 6 where you Draw out the material to form the candle holder. Use half face blows, a monkey tool, or a flatter to draw to the spike etc

Half face blows are not a problem,

What do you mean by a monkey tool, My interpretation of a monkey tool is for making shoulders on tenons,

A flatter is used for finishing a surface smooth after drawing or forging is completed, not for drastic reduction of material section.

Or is there some other tool you call a flatter that is confusing me?

It may be we call it a fuller, that is what we use/do to reduce and draw down a section quickly, then flatter it to remove the high spots and give a good surface finish.

Sorry to be a nuisance

[gadetoz]

Hi all, from my perspective this thread is a great read already.

While I was a bit late to see it (work got in the way) and therefore had to try and catch up on the reference source pics. (For others who might also be late.... the picture attached shows the original? concept under discussion/challenged as to whether the object in question could be hand forged, leading to a discussion tending towards to replication/design/practice with clay)

I support the concept of looking at a problem and attempting to solve it (preferably as a group). In this thread I have seen many elements of this and other things I enjoy on this site.

Many thanks to all and in particular Phil for taking the time to expose your thoughts on how a problem can be challenged or potentially solved.

Trevor

[pkrankow]

Nice one Phil, thanks for the explanation, well done. But could you clarify this please. it is a terminology thing I think.

Can you explain in step 6 where you Draw out the material to form the candle holder. Use half face blows, a monkey tool, or a flatter to draw to the spike etc

Half face blows are not a problem,

What do you mean by a monkey tool, My interpretation of a monkey tool is for making shoulders on tenons,

A flatter is used for finishing a surface smooth after drawing or forging is completed, not for drastic reduction of material section.

Or is there some other tool you call a flatter that is confusing me?

It may be we call it a fuller, that is what we use/do to reduce and draw down a section quickly, then flatter it to remove the high spots and give a good surface finish.

Sorry to be a nuisance

I'm new to this too, so I could be calling a monkey tool wrong, but I understood it to be a tool for creating a feature, typically a tenon, but not limited to that. The feature being created is about 1 inch long and 1/2 inch wide at one end and narrowing to nothing at the other.

There is not going to be a lot of mass left at the spike to move, so a small flatter or top set is in sync with illustrations and descriptions I have read about in online texts

A fuller might be more appropriate. Leaving more mass in this not very visible area is also an option. I was just trying to recreate the process to make the item pictured.

Phil

[pkrankow]

Trevor,
if you got the picture that looks like it is on a table top with a candle stub in it, that is the one I took my scale measurements off of. I just enlarged it to fill my screen and measured, then measured a stub candle I have to get a scale.
Phil

[pkrankow]

Thanks Phil. I will try your method later in the week. I like your process for figuring out the steps. I have to get some clay. As others commented,I also thought the ebay piece looked like it had been welded using a torch or mig?

I think it is an apprentice's product and not nicely finished in the transition from the spike to the candle holder. The transition to the scroll handle to the spike looks like a burr from being cut hot from both sides to me. I have made a few burs that look like that due to misalignment in the cut. I have been using a cold chisel designated for hot though, so it makes big burs every time. (Frank's opinion made me look more closely there)

It was stuck in my head that it wasn't welded when I first looked at auction pictures. Fire welding on a small common object does not make a lot of sense to me. Just because a process doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it wasn't done that way, I have about 1 1/2 years of reading, and about 6 months of hands on for an hour or two every other week or so.

If it was mig/torch welded together it would still have been based on something a smith made, or it would not have been advertised as a historic piece from the 18th century.

If this is period it is likely an apprentice's product. The shop probably made dozens of these for sale and would find a way to make it quickly with the fewest additional tools besides the hammer and anvil. Having cosmetic blemishes in a hidden area of the transition seems to be acceptable from a mass production standpoint. This is speculation on my part.

You are welcome, this was a fun exercise. I hope making one is more fun than playing with clay!

Phil

[John B]

I'm new to this too, so I could be calling a monkey tool wrong, but I understood it to be a tool for creating a feature, typically a tenon, but not limited to that. The feature being created is about 1 inch long and 1/2 inch wide at one end and narrowing to nothing at the other.

There is not going to be a lot of mass left at the spike to move, so a small flatter or top set is in sync with illustrations and descriptions I have read about in online texts

A fuller might be more appropriate. Leaving more mass in this not very visible area is also an option. I was just trying to recreate the process to make the item pictured.

Phil

Thanks Phil, It would seem there is a problem for a lot of people relatively new to the industry trying to identify and name the tools they are using,

To help with this, may I suggest a visit to http://www.glendaleforge.co.uk/ and click on explanations, and you will see an excellent list of tools, their names and uses and descriptions, which can then be related to items/drawings in their other sections, including the following,

Flatter; as its name suggests, is employed in making the surface texture of the iron work piece flat or free from blemishes left by the hand hammer.

And I think this is what you are calling a mini flatter,

Set Hammer: Not a hammer as such, but is a tool used struck by a sledge to produce a very definite square shoulder on a stepped forging such as a tenon on a heel. To drive the set hammer well into the corner, the best results are gained by directing the blow diagonally, hitting the corner of the head.


Monkey Tool: Used for shouldering up a swaged tenon, the elongated sight hole being simply to ensure that the tenon does not foul inside the Monkey tool.

(Sorry can't seem to find a picture for the monkey tool, but it is described pretty well)

I hope this helps, US names may vary, but I think will by and large be similar.

[pkrankow]

Honestly the use of a fuller did not occur to me (nor that fullering across the anvil was the real process). If a fuller is used, the metal can be "twisted" as it is shaped at that area and the need to upset in the ribbon of metal would be reduced to simply controlling spread as it is drawn out.

The way I made the clay model bothered me a bit as it seemed like too much work to upset in then twist a small section and flatten it out again. No I did not illustrate that step. Heck, I did not illustrate a bunch of smaller steps!

I will have a look at that website. Thank you for your insight as well.

Phil

[John B]

Honestly the use of a fuller did not occur to me (nor that fullering across the anvil was the real process). If a fuller is used, the metal can be "twisted" as it is shaped at that area and the need to upset in the ribbon of metal would be reduced to simply controlling spread as it is drawn out.

The way I made the clay model bothered me a bit as it seemed like too much work to upset in then twist a small section and flatten it out again. No I did not illustrate that step. Heck, I did not illustrate a bunch of smaller steps!

I will have a look at that website. Thank you for your insight as well.

Phil

You are welcome Phil, I did not want to appear patronising, you did a great job with sorting out one way it could be done. Full marks for that

[Sam Thompson]

I've just noticed two volume OED gives a definition for 'fuller' that is an excellent description of a swage; still, nobody's perfect.

[pkrankow]

Went shopping today and bought a couple of different candles

"federal" style candles measure .865 at the base and .850 at the top, so a 7/8 (.875) mandrel may be better.

I measured three tapers too, and came up with .890, .900, and .860 at the fattest part of the base. All three candles were less than .875 (7/8) within an inch of the fattest part.

I bought a pack of Coleman Emergency candles, and without the tin cup they come with they measure slightly oval, 1.200 to 1.230. I believe they are made in a clam shell mold as there are signs of a parting line running the length of them.

UCO candle lantern candles also were rather oval, measuring 1.175 to 1.210

The UCO and Coleman candles would probably fit nicely if a 1 1/4 mandrel was used.

Phil

[John B]

Candles tend to vary each time they are purchased, one way to overcome the need to search for candles that fit into a particular nozzle or socket, is to make a "Candle iron"

Sounds technical, but all it is is a nozzle or socket made to the same form as the candleholder being made, this is then mounted onto a handle and looks something like a candle snuffer,

Then you just warm the "Candle iron" in any suitable way (It does not have to be very hot, merely warm enough to melt wax) and insert your candle end into it, the warm 'Candle iron' will then mould the end of the candle to be a perfect fit to be used in the candle holder you have made, nothing worse than a droopy candle to make the holder look wonky.

An extra bonus you can 'give' to the client, or sell them one. Just warn them the candlegrease will drop through, so don't use it over anything likely to be damaged.