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I Forge Iron

Narrowing the PH field


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Hey ladies doing the negatives. I just love poking wasps nest for fun. Lets see how many negs you can do when you really let rip ... badge of honour and all that. Go girly boy go. Better still reveal yourslf .

... oops sorry ....forgot.... old ladies got no danglers.

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Ron now has a design for a smaller hammer. A 25lb portable that will run off a 5hp 110V compresor. It is a sweet hammer.




Is Ron's smaller hammer design in the public domain? Are there pictures?

Thanks. Bob
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Carefull Dylan old son. We don't wantcha gettin banned. We don't give any points to people we don't like + or -! Now, don't you feel better? I think people are just having fun with ya, I know I was. Uh, not that I gave you any or anything like that. Scouts honor.

Actually I'm sure I picked up somewhere there was a scouts badge or test or woggle or whatever for something blacksmithy years and years ago. Maybe you remembersmile.gif

Night Owl.
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I Have often considered making my own power hammer but considering how cheaply second hand ones in the UK can be got for I have not bothered .
The main differences between air and spring hammers....
Spring

Very quiet running, no chuffing .
economy of power use , I have had a 60lb Goliath running on 1HP (my current one is much more responsive on 5hp)
fly wheels are a wonderful thing .
they seem harder hitting for their weight , However you get slow soft blows and hard fast blows .

Most overhead rotating hammers will have a slight sideways movement in the tup and this promoted diamonding of stock .
tooling use can be a rite Dance with a mechanical .

Air
constant blow rate (self contained)
ease of using tooling

I want to make a one hit air hammer some time for hand tool work . and it would seem to me that all the home made hammer designs I have sen run very small gauge plumbing for the weight they are moving .
I have made a few Nitrogen and air canons and you can get ridiculous amounts of power from air but you need to have big hoses and valves and supply as opposed to high pressure . To make things happen quick you need volume .

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I want to make a one hit air hammer some time for hand tool work . and it would seem to me that all the home made hammer designs I have sen run very small gauge plumbing for the weight they are moving .
I have made a few Nitrogen and air canons and you can get ridiculous amounts of power from air but you need to have big hoses and valves and supply as opposed to high pressure . To make things happen quick you need volume .

Yeah sure do. I think Grant said you need 25cfm per hundredweight. Air behaves as a fluid and thats roughly and readily 2 baths full of air per minute. Can't see a bath being filled in 30 sec through a 1/2" bore pipe!
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Same approach to flow applies to internal combustion engines.
It matters not how big your cylinders are if you`re not feeding them thru a big enough carb and high flow air cleaner(or velocity stack).Likewise,you can`t put a restrictive muffler on it and expect to take advantage of all that potential HP either.

On to bigger things,Love the new pic Frank eerrr,I mean Grant.Who knows what we will hear next when the urge for spontaneous song overtakes you.

As for you our UK Little Richard,don`t let the ratings play get in the way of posting your wisdom or get under your skin.The CKB(Clucking Kitchen Bitches)would sorely miss you if you were to get banned.
Look at it this way,you have eclipsed our Master Curmudgeon in the negative category.You will now have to drive everywhere you go or risk having the contents of your shoes and underwear checked at all the airports.See,there really is a silver lining inside the dark cloud.
Illigitimus non carborundum!

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Harold,

Found pics of your hammer finally.I have a few questions if you don`t mind.

I`d like to ask why you arranged the cylinder and head as you did.Are you seeing any problems relating to having them offset? would you do it that way again?

The hammer seems to be very tall and looks to be anchored to the beam overhead.Did you build it that height so you could anchor it to the beam?If so do you feel the approach was worth while?I have a rather low overhead and was thinking about taking advantage of that and anchoring the hammer there if there`s no real reason not to.

It also looks like you have two full size dies mounted side by side.I can`t tell by the pics what the top die looks like or it`s true size so could you talk about your double set up and maybe post a few more pics.

Thanks for steering me to your hammer as it is different from what I`ve seen so far and has me thinking more about the mechanics and design of where I`m planning to go.

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Harold,

Found pics of your hammer finally.I have a few questions if you don`t mind.

I`d like to ask why you arranged the cylinder and head as you did.Are you seeing any problems relating to having them offset? would you do it that way again?

The hammer seems to be very tall and looks to be anchored to the beam overhead.Did you build it that height so you could anchor it to the beam?If so do you feel the approach was worth while?I have a rather low overhead and was thinking about taking advantage of that and anchoring the hammer there if there`s no real reason not to.

It also looks like you have two full size dies mounted side by side.I can`t tell by the pics what the top die looks like or it`s true size so could you talk about your double set up and maybe post a few more pics.

Thanks for steering me to your hammer as it is different from what I`ve seen so far and has me thinking more about the mechanics.

MainlyBob, The photo is a little deseving. The hammer is free standing. The beam you see is the column for the building and I mounted the regulator and oiler there. The overall height of the hammer is 5'6" and sets on a pad of 4x4s. I mounted the cylinder the way I did because it requires less machining. The slide/glide on the front tube has brass inserts to act as a bearing surface and has set screws for tention to prevent binding. I will take some better photos today and post them tonight if the computor gods are willing.
Edited by HWHII
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Thank you,Harold.I look forward to seeing them.
If it`s not too much trouble,could you include some text with the pics about your thoughts on the hows and whys of the build?

You`re right about why I thought the hammer was taller.Having the air fittings on the column was what threw me.

I`ve been thinking about what YD said about orienting the cylinder below the tup as opposed to above.From what I saw of the hammer he showed it had 2 cylinders,one on either side pulling down.What concerned me was that it limited access to the dies that way,at least in my mind it does.
Your offset cylinder could be rigged below(with proper guarding to keep scale,etc out)and still not limit access as much is why I`m so curious about it.

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Mainely,BOB, I am going to attemped to down load the photos hopefuly they will come out the right size. :unsure: I really need to sit down for a few days with some one and figure out how to work this thing right. :lol:

As far as why I built my hammer the way I did, simply because I have always had the need to be a little different in everything I do. This a been both a blessing and a curse.

I really like the 50lb Bull design and it did operate with the cylinder on the bottom but just on a single tube. I personly know of two people that have one and got to work on one and after watching the tube flex I thought there would be a fatique issue at some point. As it turn out the builder did go back and change the tube to a soild bar. For me a parallel tube would supply the reinforcement needed. I mounted the cylinder were I did because it seemed logical and I could plumb it to Ron Kinyon's design. The anvil is railroad car axle. If I built another I would not change a thing it has served me well for many years althought I do not use it a my primary hammer anymore since I got my SayHa. I have specialty dies I use it for now. If you have any more questions I will do my best to help you out.

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Is Ron's smaller hammer design in the public domain? Are there pictures?

Thanks. Bob


Bob, here are some pictures of Ron Kinyon's new design. This is the larger hammer but it will run on a small compressor. I believe a 5hp 110v 30 gal. He is going to send me some pictures of the smaller one tonight and I will post them tommorow.

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WOW Harold!You really went above and beyond with providing both the pics and the additional info.I really appreciate it!

I thought things in the air hammer world were becoming more simple but,like most things,The more you get into it the more complicated it gets.
Young Dylan`s controls and valving seemed to simplify the plumbing and control aspect of it. Now I find myself looking at 4 very different designs for the frame and head assembly,a part of the picture I had thought was relatively straight forward.There`s the original Kinyon design,YD`s pull rather than push design,Ron`s new design(with that added leaf spring) and then there`s your solid design too Harold.Many more things to think about than originally planned for.

One more question for you Harold.What size cylinder did you use for yours and what is needed to feed it(PSI and CFM please)?

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WOW Harold!You really went above and beyond with providing both the pics and the additional info.I really appreciate it!

I thought things in the air hammer world were becoming more simple but,like most things,The more you get into it the more complicated it gets.
Young Dylan`s controls and valving seemed to simplify the plumbing and control aspect of it. Now I find myself looking at 4 very different designs for the frame and head assembly,a part of the picture I had thought was relatively straight forward.There`s the original Kinyon design,YD`s pull rather than push design,Ron`s new design(with that added leaf spring) and then there`s your solid design too Harold.Many more things to think about than originally planned for.

One more question for you Harold.What size cylinder did you use for yours and what is needed to feed it(PSI and CFM please)?

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Bob, here are some pictures of Ron Kinyon's new design. This is the larger hammer but it will run on a small compressor. I believe a 5hp 110v 30 gal. He is going to send me some pictures of the smaller one tonight and I will post them tommorow.


This is it Ron Kinyon's "The MonteHammer"
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Same approach to flow applies to internal combustion engines.
It matters not how big your cylinders are if you`re not feeding them thru a big enough carb and high flow air cleaner(or velocity stack).Likewise,you can`t put a restrictive muffler on it and expect to take advantage of all that potential HP either.

On to bigger things,Love the new pic Frank eerrr,I mean Grant.Who knows what we will hear next when the urge for spontaneous song overtakes you.

As for you our UK Little Richard,don`t let the ratings play get in the way of posting your wisdom or get under your skin.The CKB(Clucking Kitchen Bitches)would sorely miss you if you were to get banned.
Look at it this way,you have eclipsed our Master Curmudgeon in the negative category.You will now have to drive everywhere you go or risk having the contents of your shoes and underwear checked at all the airports.See,there really is a silver lining inside the dark cloud.
Illigitimus non carborundum!


Bob

Guess I'm gonna go for the record. If I get enough I may achieve reprobate status ... maybe even "outlaw". Would be good to know who's doing them cos I could suss out their point of view and post more things to get their underwear all a flutter.

On a more serious note ..... re air/mechanical one of the other advantages to self contained air is being able to work wide thin stock both ways, i.e going from drawing down 100 x 12 mm with the 100mm up then flipping it over to work the 12mm, all without having to make any adjustment. Kinyons aren't quite that versatile but I've got my pilot connected to a foot pedal that quickly moves it up or down with a touch of the foot.

With hindsight I probably wouldn't have made my Kinyons, I'd have borrowed the money and bought maybe one of the smaller Anyangs and used it to earn the money to buy another. At the time I was just starting out and had more time than work. Wether you make a mechanical or Kinyon you're gonna invest a lot of time doing it well (only way to do things). If it's a hobby thing this probably is no problem. If you're running a workshop is not always the best thing to do in terms of economics. I'm a natural born inveterate tinkerer but these days I'm really having to rein myself in. These days I kinda take the approach it's better to use the shop to earn a living plus the money to buy ready made (reliable) toys tools. I've spent too much time in the past making tools that make tools when I should have been making stuff to pay for the shop. That said whilst it might not be the most cost effective thing to make one yourself, it's really good learning experience. I knew absolutely zero about pneumatics when I bulit the first Kinyon. Still don't know a right lot about it now but what I did allowed me to get to grips with hydraulics (air and oil are both fluids) and built a 15Tonne electrohydraulic press ...... and then cos I'm a tool geek I bought a 30T one.

Hey I would have thought after over 100 years someone would have decided by now which hammer was better

Air hammers rock!
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No rush Harold,I`m still in the planning stages as you can see.
Thanks again.

Hi Bob I have a Clay Spencer tire hammer which I built at NESM in Aburn, ME 3 years ago. I am very happy with it, if you want to try it out come up to my shop I'm about 3/4 hour North of you in Liberty. PM me if you are interested. wana be
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WOW Harold!You really went above and beyond with providing both the pics and the additional info.I really appreciate it!

I thought things in the air hammer world were becoming more simple but,like most things,The more you get into it the more complicated it gets.
Young Dylan`s controls and valving seemed to simplify the plumbing and control aspect of it. Now I find myself looking at 4 very different designs for the frame and head assembly,a part of the picture I had thought was relatively straight forward.There`s the original Kinyon design,YD`s pull rather than push design,Ron`s new design(with that added leaf spring) and then there`s your solid design too Harold.Many more things to think about than originally planned for.

One more question for you Harold.What size cylinder did you use for yours and what is needed to feed it(PSI and CFM please)?

Bob

Re the 4 hammer options I'm still digesting picture of Harolds and the new Kinyon. Of my 2 flavours I'd wouldn't recomend building my KA75ish as a first one. It needs relatively accurate machining of the guides and yokes (good sized lathe and mill work). If misaligned it will tend to jam up and loose speed. It took me a lot more time than than I initially figured. The conventional Kinyon can be made with more or less a drill and MIG.

Good points re my KA75; cylinders pulling down rather than pushing = much better control, small fooftprint, bad points limited access because of the guides, stroke limited to 250mm or hammer gets too tall. I'd say say if it's a first hammer go for a C throat. This isn't an issue with me because I've got the other Kinyon and an Anyang 40Kg. Also worth noting the new Kinyon pulls rather than pushes. Because I'm a big fan of this, I'm quite intringued by this design.

An anside I think Ron Kinyon should be awarded a medal for his service to blacksmithing. There must be 1000's of them in home garages etc all over the world. At the time I built mine there were none of the mechanical designs around and Anyangs weren't imported to the UK (Sahinlers were but were too expensive for me at the time)

Re valving, my things are more "add ons" rather than a different valving than the Kinyon. They tend to complicate rather than simplify because the top of my hammer looks like something from an Alien film. The original Kinyon design is the simplest and his pulling cylinder in his new design means you don't have to use the bypass and regulator I mentioned in one of my posts. I'm always a big fan of going simple so it might be an idea to look at this. It might also be worth speaking to John Larson, he seems to get quite short strokes with a good wallop from his and he might recomend other valving arrangements.

To me the fewer moving parts of air hammers mean less to go wrong; always a good engineering principle. That said, as mentioned the tup/ cylinder rod connection is a weak point on the original Kinyon.

Air hammers rock cool.gif
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