Do you have any help? Are they helpful?

[monstermetal]

I have for years held off on being more than a one man shop. I am not a good manager of people and I tend to be very closed minded and intolerant when it comes to others shortcomings who are working with me. My hope has always been that I would find more of a partner who could run there own jobs and help pay the shop overhead but my experiments to that effect where both failures where I ended up paying all the expenses and bled me rather than helped.... The last one cost me around 30K before I cut the cord, I cant survive another one of those. What I find though Is I spent 30 hours a week just taking care of things... not actually "working" but doing the things that need to happen to keep the shop running... So I end up spending 70+ hours at the shop every week to produce about 25-30 hours of billable work... Much of what I do could be done by a person with some sense about them.. cutting and cleaning material, shop clean up... but my experience has been anyone who is "good" enough to work around the shop is worth $25/hour or more and I simply cant afford to pay them. Anyone who is not "good" ends up costing more time and effort than they are worth.... I have not drawn a wage out of my shop in 6 years and last year I lost a ton of money... So it makes it that much harder to justify. The other thing is I really dont want to have to jump through all the state hoops they make "employers" jump through.. What are your guys experience? How did you find your helpers and do they make your life better?

[Dillon Sculpture]

Don't get me started... too late.

I'm a real @#$% to work for but, I've managed to hold on to one guy for almost ten years with many in between. What it sounds like what you need is about what I'm looking for. A manager to run the day to day, phone, paperwork paying bills stuff, free you up for shop time. Also need to get some young blood, college or high school looking to learn how to make something with their hands, put em on a broom, organize, hold the dumb end. Maybe you will get lucky and find one that does both. Anyways, good luck, if you know of anybody let me know.

[Reinier]

When I have a big job, I often call my cousin who's great with the sledge. I mostly pay him just for the hours he works for me, since working with two goes twice as fast if you don't talk too much. For other jobs I have a friend who's great at welding and stuff. He works with me when I have a welding job aswell as a forging job. In that way he can do the welding and I can do the forging, twice as fast again. I also pay him the hours he works for me.

If you are looking for an employee I should spread the word you are looking for one and just try how it goes. Can he work on his own as you described, or do you have to solve problems you wouldn't have when working on your own? But I think you thought of that yourself. I hope my reply helped you in any way.

Cheers

[HWHII]

I have been lucky and have a young college man to help me when I need him. As long as I give him enough notice he will always come. He can not weld but I have tought him to be a fabricator. I got him right out of high school. I arrange for him to work around his school classes. I pay him a fair wage and keep him under 20hrs a week and consider him contract labor. He seems to be very happy.

When I worked for a very large company we tried to hire young men right out of high school or the local comunity college welding programs for some positions. They are very eager to learn and if your interviews are good you can weed out the bad ones. Most have turn out to be good long term employees there.

[DennisG]

My two cents......

Being the "worker" in the shop for most of my working age, I would have to say that you are expecting alot for nothing. That being said I will explain what I mean.

As an experienced employee going into a new shop you are expected to know thing and depending on yrs in an industry will depend on the amount of knowledge. What also is a factor is what you have learned in your yrs in a trade. Since I am a welder/fitter by trade I will speak of that.

I was taught to weld AND fit in the welding trade. I am currently just a welder as the company has just fitters. When I started I had a basic knowledge of welding and building things. The learning curve is great and I was taught how to do things as per that shop and by those vastly more knowledgeable then myself. My first shop was a small fab shop, we did lots of one ofs or small order things. I moved and ended up in a vessel making shop (oil field / refinery) there I learned more on welding and fitting but it was on a very much larger scale then I originally started at. Over my years of working as a welder, 23 and counting, I have learned alot, and forgot alot, but through it all still keep learning.

At each shop I have worked I have done my job as I know best to do it and this is where you seem to run into a problem. I have learned to do something a certain way, it may be the wrong way to you but it is not to me. I of course have learned to do some things easier or different in my years. When I pass on knowledge of doing something it is always with the line " this is how I do it, someone else may have a different way of doing it, learn it and adjust to what works for you". I have had apprentices show me new ways to do things. I found it best to be left with a project to do, checked on from time to time, questioned as to steps and whys, then when it is all done, educated on how something could have been done faster or easier. As time goes by harder projects were left in my hands, and the boss was always open to questions on a "how do I.....". I never stayed at a place very long if the boss always started in with "you are doing it all wrong!" or "@#%$! IT'S NOT ROCKET CARPENTRY!!!!". Patience and understanding pay off.

If you want someone to do what you do how you do it then spend money on getting a clone made (thats a funny not serious). If you want a fully experienced person to do the work then you will have to pay for it and also step back and let them do the job they know how to do, but then you can also watch and learn and or CONSTRUCTIVELY critique. The other and best option is to get an apprentice who has better then basic knowledge ( a thinker is good), who understands that the pay curve goes with the knowledge curve and watch and teach them. The upside to this option is that they will learn to do things your way, you will see their progress, and yes at first it will be slower but in time that will change.

If you have a local trade school or vocational high school in your area, take a coffee break and go visit their welding department. Talk with the instructors and find out which student they think is good candidate to work in your shop. Instructors can get a good feel for the students and this would work to your advantage as a pre screening of a possible future employee.

I think it is best to remember that everyone does things differently. Yes, you have the capital invested, and it is your name out there, but there is only one of you, now you just need to find another who is similar to you or has the drive like you do.

As the saying goes " you gotta kiss alot of frogs to find your prince"

hope this helps.

[Fe-Wood]

I grapple with this question ALL the time! I like the potential but the reality of employees sucks! Ya, I've had a few bad experiences with employees over the years. California law is tough on employers too.

Anyway not to digress.

MM, your shop has sounded like a business and a passion so that makes it hard to draw a line between where the business stops and the passion begins.

As others have said, bringing in temp help is one way but if you plan on being "legal" they have to be insured under workers comp. That can be done but it is a PIA. Training new help is costly and loyalty follows the money. Meaning: you train them and when they realize they can get more $$ elsewhere and before you have recouped training costs, they move on.

The other way is to sub out the portion of the work not fully suited to your shops "focus".

Time organization is another huge factor. How much time do you spend building and maintaining the shop or building the product? I managed a production furniture shop years ago and we shot for 30 billable hours a week out of 40 worked. Sometimes we would get 35+ billable if it was a big job without a lot of admin or repair work and sometimes as low as 25 hours. Our schedule was based on 30 hours bilable per person per week. That equation has to be factored into the shop rate too.

With my current situation, I'm shooting for and basing budgets on 20 billable hours per week and expect to work around 40+ to achieve that but then Its a new shop and business too.


Good luck!

[Mainely,Bob]

What DennisG said!

Over the years I have put up with alot from employers and have handed it back too.My big question was always "If you don`t trust me then why`d you hire me?".
I think it was Patton who said"Never tell a man how to do something.Tell him what you want and then get out of his way and watch".

The last fab shop I worked for started out as a part time job after my 40 hours at the boatyard.Things were fine as long as Mike and I were doing the work for extra money.We usually talked things over and decided how to proceed together.
As soon as Mike decided to go full time he asked me to quit the yard and work full time for him.It quickly went from a democracy to a dictatorship.I left the day he complained that I had wrapped the mig lead in a counterclockwise fashion and he wanted it wound clockwise.
He`s still in business but goes thru employees faster than anyone else in the area.

The idea of talking to the voc-ed teacher is a good one.I`ve had a student tag along with me in a number of different companies.I guess they thought since I was an NCO in the Army reserve then I knew how to train young men.
I found the trick was to always keep them busy and to be a very specific in my communication.I explained things in depth once,asked if there were any questions and then showed them by doing what I expected.Once shown I again asked for questions.If there were none then I handed the work to them while I either prepped parts or another job nearby.If I expected them to always be busy that meant I had to be busy too.
At the end of the day I again asked if there were any questions about what we had done that day.I also expected them to carry a small notebook and pen with them(I always did)and told them to write down things like weld parameters for the machine they used,type of rod or wire,Type of shield gas and flowmeter settings,techniques specific to a particular job and anything else they thought important.
At the end of the day I looked at their book.
Second time around on a job or when doing a job close to one we had already done I only went over things that were different or things to watch out for(like safety issues) and then asked for questions.
I also made it a point to put them with other workers or sub contractors once they had proved to be competent.After the job or at the end of the day I asked what they had learned and expected new insight.The point was that there`s other ways to do a job beside mine.Some are better,some are not so good,some are just different.I always wanted these guys to know the reasoning behind the process and to be able to operate outside the company we worked for.The point was to get them to stand on their own and think for themselves.To do any less is to put blinders on them and you`ll have to commit to the fact you`ll do all their thinking for them.I tried to keep them challenged and feeling good about the work and themselves.If they looked forward to coming to work then I felt I was successful.

Perhaps if you`re unwilling to release control of the work it would be a better bet to hire an office geek.Someone who knows nothing about metalwork but knows how to run an office and talk to folks on the phone.That alone could free up much of your time.
Another approach would be to take someone who knows metalwork but is better with his head than he is with his hands and train him to do estimating and drumming up work instead of just shop work.

If your heart is in getting your hands dirty then find a part time helper.There are plenty of smart old hands out there that have been "downsized" and maybe can`t keep up with the young blood or spend 8 hours kneeling on steel or standing on a ladder everyday.They`re still smart and want to work and they can still work layout or cut to a line standing at a bench.
You`re a smart guy Larry,I`m sure you know alot of people who either fit the bill or know where those people are at,go out and find them.

One last thought.I was always happiest and made the most money working either flat rate or commission.If you pay a man by the hour he gets the same if he busts his butt or is sitting in the truck.Give him incentives and he`ll work hard,fast and continuous.Something I always kept in mind.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Just finished another day with nothing to show but a learning experience, who do I bill that too, at least I didn't pay someone else to mess it up. A good friend would usually comment in a case like this "You knew you were in it by yourself when you started"

[Fe-Wood]

Bob- Dennis-
You guys are the exceptions and not the rule. If there where more out there like the two of you, Larry wouldn't be asking this question.... Sorry, I'm a little pessimistic!

[chyancarrek]

It was my experience as a production supervisor with 70 people working for me that lead me to staying a one man shop. There were just too many times where a department lead would come up to me and say "so & so just walked off the floor" or the local deputy would show up to take one of my people into custody. Did I always get it right when I hired them? No, but many of them had lengthy experience or interviewed really well then just ended up not being worth the time put into having them on the factory floor. Add to that all of the normal adjustments you have to make because your people have "life going on" and they need the extra consideration it really puts a strain on focusing on the work to be done. As the years went on I found it really hard to sit across the interview table from a member of the "entitlement generation" - the funniest one was when a fellow about 23 who was interviewing for an entry level position told me that he wouldn't work for anything less than $xx,xxx a year. Given that he'd asked for about $10,000 a year more than my job paid, I can only assume he wasn't really serious about wanting to get hired.

All that being said, it's not all doom and gloom out there - there's some excellent workers and inspired kids who may just fit the bill. You just have to wade through a lot o' chaff to get to that premium wheat! The suggestions of either getting some "on again - off again" help who are paid for just the hours they work (my current solution when I need help) on a specific project or taking on a part time "apprentice" may be a good way to get your feet wet in regards to having someone to share the load. Take it a step at a time and just get comfortable with the fact that it may take some stumbling to find just the right fit.

Good luck Larry - keep us up to date on what you end up deciding.

[monstermetal]

Yeah I must not have portrayed what my shortcomings are well... I dont want to micro manage people... as a matter of fact I dont want to manage people at all... That has been my major downfall when employed by others in a management position.. it never fails, I was good at my "worker" job so they put me in charge of people, which I was horrible at. I expect someone to be able to work on there own, not ask me a bunch of questions, produce an item with excellent craftsmanship in a reasonable amount of time... And anyone I have had help me I have always paid well.... for contract labor I have paid from $20-$50/hr.... Its hard to describe my issues but here is an example... This is how it actually happened from my perspective at least... I would give "jobs" to him to do on his own under the pretence he would get the majority of the income... One of the last jobs he did for me was a simple 7 foot long curved balcony rail. It was a $1800 job.... the customer brought in a temple we where to build it to so no site work. We had some freedom as to a design and I left him to build what ever he wanted.... what he built was a rail with 5/8 square tube pickets... very plain and basic... More on that later.... after he finished up and went home I went to load it in the truck to take to powdercoat and noticed he had only tacked in the pickets, not fully welded them.... this is exterior and the rust will seep thorugh any crack so I drug it back over to the welding table and started welding up all the pickets.. while it was on the table I noticed two of the feet where way crooked so I cut them off and straitened them up... and the view through the thing looked like a jail cell... so I made some C scrolls and some loops and added them in to break it up and give it at least something other than straight bars.... so 4 or 5 hours later I finally loaded it in the truck and ran it into powdercoat.... So to try and keep this short I'll cut to the chase.... It comes time to settle up. The guy writes the company (me) a check for the $1800 and I tell my guy I'll give him a grand... I bought the materials, paid for the powdercoat.. spent $500 worth of my time "fixing" the thing... drove it and picked it up from powdercoat....Not to mention built in my shop with my equipment.... And my guy thinks im screwing him, cuz after all he did all the work.... Of course I think Im giving him about double what he earned so that was pretty much the last of those jobs for him... The other deal with this guy is he is a fantastic metal worker.... he is young but an outstanding craftsman.... as long as its HIS stuff he is working on.... he has done some beautiful work when its something he cares about... but when I gave him a job he did the least work he could get away with so he could get back to what was important... what HE wanted to do... Im not like that, it doesn't matter to me if I am working for someone or doing my own thing I wont do a half job just because I can. I was taught to do everything as if its the thing you will be judged on... because it is.. How you do one thing is how you do everything.... If the guy was doing his best and falling short thats one thing... but this guy was more than capable, he just didnt care... I wrongly believed by paying him well I could motivate him to do better work. Problem was he didn't care about money, he just wanted to work on what he wanted to work on, which wasn't my stuff..

Anyway the guy is a great guy and very talented... But it didn't do me any good to have him in my shop... I want someone who knows what to do, and does it... I dont want to tell you that those welds aren't good, that needs sanded again.. or that you need to pick up after yourself.. your a big boy (or girl) and your mother should have taught you that long before you got to my shop!... :angry:

(this is that railing, about as simple and basic as it gets)

[Fe-Wood]

Larry-
I don't know the particulars about the hiring of your helper. But I do know you didn't hire him to be a mind reader. The idea of managing people is that the manager needs to transfer information related to the successful out come of a project. This is not micro management. Pictures are always good! Telling someone you need a railing that will fit the template with a cost/price of $1800.00 and he can do whatever he wants is irresponsible (sorry, but it is) Its your business that got the job and your sensibility that they hired, not his. YOU are responsible to make sure he is building what you had in mind and not hoping he will figure out what you had in mind. What would you think if he had gone the other way and started a master piece that would take six months to complete?

This is very similar to a situation I was involved in a while back. I was on the receiving end. It had nothing to do with quality, it was more about expectation. He thought I would work on the job at hand with poor explanation while he was out on another job and I didn't. This caused bad blood with me because I had traveled 90 miles one way to help and he didn't respect my time and he was upset when I didn't work on the job while he was gone. I didn't feel I had good enough instructions to forge ahead. I don't like making mistakes, especially with Bronze.

Expectation without clear communications are a recipe for disaster!

Be clear about what you expect and MAKE SURE they know what you are looking for. It is your business after all!

From everything else you say about this guy- He sounds like he could work out if given proper instructions.


Sorry if I sound a little harsh, I know you can handle it :)

[DennisG]

Well MM, after reading the extended write up of the situation and the advice given so far, I vote for taking on a retired or semi retired metal worker. The other option is a retired semi retired office person. Good luck with this and let us know what happens.

[Mainely,Bob]

Well,here I go again.

What FE said is exactly correct,you only get what you communicate.

As an insight to young minds the biggest wake up call I ever got was working as a Drill Sgt.for the Army.The recruits ran the spectrum from crack heads and dealers,mental cases(seriously),single mothers(gender integrated training and housing),gangbangers,neo-nazis,and just plain patriotic kids.The first 3 weeks was just trying to get them in the proper mindset and keep them off one another.Some were just not cut out for military duty and we did everything we could to find them and put them back on the bus.One of my specialties was dealing with problem children.They sent me the worst and they either improved or I forced them out.Every day I took the time to tell them what they did well that day or what they were doing that was bringing them closer to that bus ride home.I also used alot of peer pressure.Starting out I was tough but always objective and consistent.
I like to think that what impressed my kids(and I thought of them that way,like we were a family)was that they saw me doing everything they were doing and doing it faster and better at twice their age.It was my job to set the example and I went above and beyond to do that.
I told them in very specific terms exactly what the standards were and then demonstrated the task to standard so they could see it as well as hear it(sometimes they`re lost till the see it done).I never asked them IF they understand I always asked them WHAT they understand,which meant they had to read it back to me,which forced them to pay close attention to what was being said and shown.I never took anything for granted,I demonstrated everything for them,how to make a bed,how to mop a floor,how to scrub a toilet,how to eat a meal(I was the last one thru the chow line.When I was done THEY were done),how to pack for a roadmarch,how to clean and maintain ALL thier gear including the barracks they slept in.If I required them to climb a tree backwards or hug a tree 3 feet off the ground then at some point they were shown how that was done.There was a reason for everything we did and I was always open to questions pertaining to the task at hand.You could ask any question,for a price.
During the final weeks before graduation(mostly in the field)I encouraged those who had made it that far to question things(maybe my thinking,NEVER my authority).I wanted them to be able to think for themselves and understand that there was a sound and solid reason for everything we did.Poorly conceived or thoughtless questions still brought consequences but if you challenged and were wrong but your challenge stemmed from independent thought then you most times got a discussion and a pass.
80-90% of any platoon I graduated I would have no problem serving beside(I was infantry).The rest were rear area admin types who were competent enough for what they needed to do.They got that way because I helped them re-make themselves into what they needed to be.Most civilians feel military training has no place in everyday life.I know different,I`ve seen the results of training to work as a member of a team and to focus on the task at hand no matter what the conditions.It opens your mind to something larger than your personal comfort zone.

My point is,yes there are alot of borderline personalities out there and it seems most of the up and coming generation have their eye on he path of least resistance(one of my sons included).They only do what they have to until they`re SHOWN different.In my mind and IME the average worker will only work as hard as they think the boss works.SHOW them how hard you work,challenge them to keep up and most importantly,reward them when they either keep up or especially when they exceed expectations.Cash is nice but words of encouragement and especially things like giving them credit for an excellent job in front of the customer go a long way to building confidence and self esteem.
IMO you need to not just shoot for making a worker as good as you are,you need to look toward making his BETTER than you are.If you bring him challenging work,let him know how much you value his time and skills and pay him a good wage that keeps pace with his talents and skill(possibly with bonuses for beating time or cost estimates while keeping quality)then your only problem will be how do you plan to compete after he goes out on his own?

First step,start wading thru the knuckleheads...

[monstermetal]

Larry-
I don't know the particulars about the hiring of your helper. But I do know you didn't hire him to be a mind reader. The idea of managing people is that the manager needs to transfer information related to the successful out come of a project. This is not micro management. Pictures are always good! Telling someone you need a railing that will fit the template with a cost/price of $1800.00 and he can do whatever he wants is irresponsible (sorry, but it is) Its your business that got the job and your sensibility that they hired, not his. YOU are responsible to make sure he is building what you had in mind and not hoping he will figure out what you had in mind. What would you think if he had gone the other way and started a master piece that would take six months to complete?

This is very similar to a situation I was involved in a while back. I was on the receiving end. It had nothing to do with quality, it was more about expectation. He thought I would work on the job at hand with poor explanation while he was out on another job and I didn't. This caused bad blood with me because I had traveled 90 miles one way to help and he didn't respect my time and he was upset when I didn't work on the job while he was gone. I didn't feel I had good enough instructions to forge ahead. I don't like making mistakes, especially with Bronze.

Expectation without clear communications are a recipe for disaster!

Be clear about what you expect and MAKE SURE they know what you are looking for. It is your business after all!

From everything else you say about this guy- He sounds like he could work out if given proper instructions.


Sorry if I sound a little harsh, I know you can handle it

Yeah its not to harsh, and I know your right.... But I dont communicate my ideas well and probably have unreasonable expectations. Actually exactly what I want in an employee is a mind reader... Which comes back to the first statement... Im not a good manager of people. In the past when I was employed and put in charge of half a dozen people... what eventually happened was I would be doing the work of half a dozen people... Its easier for me to take on there responsibility and do it myself than it is for me to get them to do it... I dont need to be told what to do, regardless of if I am working alone or with a group. I can see 3 steps ahead what should be done and I do it... I dont wait for someone to tell me. a small percentage of the time I am wrong but at least I am doing something which is what I expect of someone else... I can live with mistakes as long as the person sees its a mistake and corrects the action as soon as its apparent Its such a simple thing to me, I get really frustrated with people who just stand there with a dumb struck look while I am doing something and have to be told every step and then told to take that step...

It makes my head hurt just thinking about it...... I guess thats why I am still working alone and I hate the thought of trying to find a helper...


I think you have a lot of good points too Bob.... I do a lot of work with kids and enjoy difficult kids ... which is kind of strange given my personality...

And Dennis I think your recommendation to find a retired or semi retired guy is a great one... My guess is that a good ol boy would fit the bill nicely...

[Mills]

I gotta chime in on this.

Like Mainely,Bob I too was a Drill Sgt. What he has described is also how many workers were trained before the warm fuzzy generation hit.

To put somebody to work means that they are expecting guidance from you. Or should. If not they need to leave. YOU set the standard and the rewards. Money is only a part of what motivates us to do what we do, whether a smith or a soldier. We all volunteered and followed our desires to learn the craft. We have failed our employers, sometimes blissfully unaware we did. Remember being confused when the old guy was mean and you thought it maybe something you did, but "aw he's just on the.... he'll get over it".

In my shop I had a an ex con who asked for a job and then did way more work than I did. I knew he was moving on and helped him however I could. But it was great to work with him. Initially though he was a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. He did not need criticism but some calming down. Cutting cords in half, breaking zip discs, "Take that outa my check" I simply and quietly led the way and pointed out where he helped me the most effectively. MAN alive we had a few days that we punched out the work. He went on to roughnecking. Good money.

I have a kid who discovered sparks on his Eagle scout project. I sponsored him. He is meek and timid and smart and oohhh so much a mamas boy. I treat him kinda rough sometimes cause he doesn't know when he has done good and when not. So He gets told again of my expectations and won't take less than this. So get better quickly or stay a puke the rest of your life.

In my view, hiring help necessarily means training help. That takes time and effort and there is no guarantee. Ain't no guarantee you'll stay in business either. Upshot is hiring somebody moves you from craftsman to business man. That is why the Drill Sgt program is so valuable to me. Getting rid of somebody wasn't an option unless you could spell out there deficiencies. That caused a man to think and to work harder to get them to work harder. Good Drills were 'people persons', always studying what motivates some and not others. Hiring help will alter YOUR life as much as marriage or children will. You have to start thinking for someone else. They become your hammer. Shape it to fit the job.

[Mainely,Bob]

Man,you just have to let go and learn to compromise!You said it yourself you ended up doing the work for 6 people.Were the other 5 incompetent?If they were getting paid an hourly wage and you insisted on doing their work then why not just let you do it?Most folks are like that.

Either learn to communicate with workers or just resign yourself to the fact that you have to do it all and you`ll burn out and die young,poor or both.
You already communicate with customers right?How far would you have gotten if you had to read their minds?Use those same skills with employees.

It`s not that you are the only one that can do this stuff correctly,that`s your ego BSing your rational brain.In reality it DOES NOT have to be done exactly your way.It does however,have to be done in a way that is acceptable to the customer and yet protects your reputation.Set clear guidelines and then let them do what they will do within those guidelines.Different is not wrong if you land on the same spot.
On that railing job,why did you pick up the lead instead of the phone?If you had set clear standards then the job was obviously not done.A 5 minute phone call would have offered options like returning and finishing it himself or paying you shop rate to complete it.

If you do hire an old hand you will have to show him respect.Respect his judgement and his skills.Think in democratic terms and you may learn from him too.
Start in with the dictatorship and telling him which direction to wrap the leads and he`ll walk just like I did.

[Fe-Wood]

Yeah its not to harsh, and I know your right.... But I dont communicate my ideas well and probably have unreasonable expectations. Actually exactly what I want in an employee is a mind reader... Which comes back to the first statement... Im not a good manager of people. In the past when I was employed and put in charge of half a dozen people... what eventually happened was I would be doing the work of half a dozen people... Its easier for me to take on there responsibility and do it myself than it is for me to get them to do it... I dont need to be told what to do, regardless of if I am working alone or with a group. I can see 3 steps ahead what should be done and I do it... I dont wait for someone to tell me. a small percentage of the time I am wrong but at least I am doing something which is what I expect of someone else... I can live with mistakes as long as the person sees its a mistake and corrects the action as soon as its apparent Its such a simple thing to me, I get really frustrated with people who just stand there with a dumb struck look while I am doing something and have to be told every step and then told to take that step...

It makes my head hurt just thinking about it...... I guess thats why I am still working alone and I hate the thought of trying to find a helper...


I think you have a lot of good points too Bob.... I do a lot of work with kids and enjoy difficult kids ... which is kind of strange given my personality...

And Dennis I think your recommendation to find a retired or semi retired guy is a great one... My guess is that a good ol boy would fit the bill nicely...

I'm going to do a little reframe and translating here.

"I dont communicate my ideas well" You do communicate well because you got the job! Its just hard for you to tell others what to do. Why is that?

"have unreasonable expectations" To me, this translated to high standards and one of the main reasons work continues to come in your door.

"Actually exactly what I want in an employee is a mind reader" This puts you in a vacuum and limits your growth as a business man and craftsmen. Some of the most valuable lessons I've learned were from teaching others.

"Its easier for me to take on there responsibility and do it myself than it is for me to get them to do it..." Deep down you know this is not true or you wouldn't have started this thread.

"I dont need to be told what to do, regardless of if I am working alone or with a group." I'm wondering how well you follow direction.

"a small percentage of the time I am wrong but at least I am doing something which is what I expect of someone else..." Sounds like you have had good direction there or have been exceedingly lucky.

"I get really frustrated with people who just stand there with a dumb struck look while I am doing something and have to be told every step and then told to take that step..." This is the main statement and has the biggest impact on your helpers. I can just see it. They start off down this path to do what they thought you have asked of them and then you come over and say WTF! then jump in and take over. It gets all quiet and the swet starts to bead up on your brow.
This is the point where you need to take a deep breath and ask in a calm way, "What do you have going here?" Or "Why did you decide to do it that way?" Not in a challenging why but in a opportunity to learn way.

Remember this- by hiring someone, you have bought them for the time in which you are paying them. You can use them to do work and help train you as a better manager. For helpers, I always liked the young fresh apprentice the most. They don't have any bad habits (read that as a different way of doing things than my way). I can mold them to approach a job in mostly the same way I will and with time and proper instruction, they will begin to anticipate my every move and be ready for it.

When you get frustrated, remember how long it has taken you to become good at making what you make. Learning good management takes time and effort just like anything else worth doing well.

You can do this Larry, you know you can! Sounds like you need to as well. Look at it as a new type of project.

[Mills]

There you go. Fe Wood really brought out the pertinent points. MM nobody is born knowing this stuff. you are choosing a different direction for your business.

Let me add too that sales is where I stink, so I am a part of a business networking group. Once a week I am in contact with people who are faced with the same troubles and may or may not have a solution. Every week I'll learn something new and I teach a bit as well cause I do good in the spotlight, just not in promoting myself. Sales are climbing and this should be my best year ever. Its gotta be cause I almost left to drive a truck last year. Its not a counseling session it just puts me in contact with others in the same boat. Like this forum too.

[pkrankow]

Maybe you just need a student for a few hours one day a week to get the hang of coaching ideas to others. Someone who is looking for guidance and not to have a full time job. If you can find a Vo-Ed student who has (or is getting) their welding ticket you'll be in good shape. Maybe talk to the local school and see about getting a rotation of students even...Fresh meat every month or three.

Initially this will be counterproductive for the stress relief though. It will make you the teacher and it will take time, but tasks will get done, and the pay will be student, not professional at least. It will also be a short term commitment to each student, even though the commitment to the school will be longer.

If you find someone who is they type of person you want, invite them to have more hours and a position, and go full time even.

Phil

[forgemaster]

It has taken me many years to get the hang of managing people, some people need a good foot up the rear every day, some people need to be handled with kid gloves, just need to figure out which is which. I normally use the reasoning, "would you pay this money for this quality of work," "ahh nup", "right then neither will our customer, go fix it and don't do it again, AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR HERE" After a while the employee will get it, other wise they get a DCM (don't come monday). You have to let the dud ones go.
I belive in apprentices, sure they are a burden for a year really, but in Oz we still have a structured apprentice system with a government provided trade school one day a week that they have to attend, normally by the second year of their time they are starting to make money, then you have at least 2 more years after that to flog them to make the money they wasted in 1st year. They have to sign a contract for 4 years, at the end of it they get a trade Cert in the trade of their calling, its worked for me, we're on our 8th apprentice now over 15 years of our own business.
Once they get to 3rd year we put them in charge of a 1st year, starts to teach them a bit of supervision skill, and if you have to teach a skill to someone else it makes you analise how you perform it also.
Its a real pity that many countries have lost their apprenticeship systems now, its a great way to train your nations workforce.
After all some one has to get their hands dirty to make the country run, we can't all be suits.

[Mills]

That sounds like a reasonable approach, it would be nice to have that here. I applaud you for teaching some supervisory skills as well. They benefit from that more than about anything I would imagine.

[Fe-Wood]

Forgemaster-
I am a product of the public trade schools of California. America let a back bone institution die when it allowed states to "dismantle" the shop classes from our public schools. I would actually consider taking on the responsibility of an apprentice if I could have them sign a 4 year contract. My experience has been as soon as they begin to be able to produce a profit they move on in search of more money. In this country. todays apprentice's are treated like mushrooms- kept in the dark and feed excrement. There is no second level of understanding as to why it is done this way instead of that way.

[jason0012]

Afew years ago tried hiring some folks. It was a pretty miserable experience. All at one time I brought four people into the shop. Quite a shock going from 1 man to five!( though the four was more like two in reality) I had hoped it would help get a project done faster. That was proven so wrong that I now operate as one man shop again! One of the guys I had working for me never showed up to begin with, called a month after the project was done to ask when we start- he hadnt answered his phone for the three months that I was building this project! The second showed up the first day and told me he was taking a different job -as a roofer(?) To his credit, he is still working that job so I guess it just appealed more. The third employee was my next door neighbor who was actually an excellent worker though she had strange hours that she was available. Number four though was the real dissaster. He was someone I had worked with for several years at a fab shop, and knew fairly well. I trusted him to be a responsible person. The first day, he didnt show. Day two and three pass. Day four, he answers his phone loud music in the background, and sounding quite drunk. (it is 8 AM) He informs me that through some baffling series of events he has found himself way-layed to New Orleans where he is currently enjoying the tequila at Jimmy Buffet's Margaritaville! But, he will be in the shop Monday, he swears! Meanwhile I have 16000 half penny s scrolls and 32000 c scrolls to make, in three weeks! Well he did show up Monday. With the one helper I had managed to get one of the balconies finished and was outside primering it. I reallised about the time that I had the first coat of paint on that I had heard absolutely no sound from the shop, for two hours ! I look in and my welder is sitting on the welding table cross legged , smoking a joint ! Hasn't done ANYTHING! I had offered at one point to partner with this guy, he turned me down flat though and a good thing! The project did get done and all went well in the end but I sure learned a lot about hiring other people. The thing that really burned me was that none of these people were strangers. The pothead was someone I had worked with for years and actually considered a good employee at that fab shop ! The only one of the four that really seemed to bust ass for me was the neighbor! She only worked nights, and always unsupervised, and was the one of these people who was a complete stranger coming into my shop ! Every morning I would come in to a huge pile of finished parts . Needless to say she was the only one of the four ever invited back on another job. I now tend to want to work alone only calling for help when instalation time rolls around.

[Mainely,Bob]

Maybe the reason she got so much work done was because she wasn`t exposed to the influence of the others,including you.As we all know,the times you LEAST want to be around the boss is when someone else has got under his skin in a big way.
Depending on the job,I sometimes found it better to work at night.No waiting for machines or sharing tools,fewer distractions,no management stopping you to tell you what you already know.
Things are cooler and calmer at nite.
When getting paid by the piece or the job I found working at nite alone or with one good partner always paid better.You get to do things your way at your pace and if the two of you are in sync and have your eye on the brass ring you can FLY thru some work.
Hey Jude and I used to tell the day boss to plan 4 days ahead and give us those jobs in advance.He still had trouble keeping up toward the end of a big job.We could do what he thought was 16 hours work in 7 hours usually.We`d talk it over,Collect and stage the tools,work together to get it started and then see how fast we could push each other(while keeping safety in mind).No breaks, you ate either B4 you started or after you finished.If you finished your step first you either helped your partner catch up or started his next step so he`d finish sooner next time and be helping you at the end.Nothin` he could help on?He started staging and prepping the next job without being told.
After coming in early once and watching us work(we immediately warned him not to interrupt us)the foreman dubbed it "hive mind" as he thought we worked like bees,seemingly without communication.Totally focused and never stationary.

The only problem with working like that is you can only sustain it for so long.4-5 days and you NEED a break or you burn out and things start going wrong.When things started going south we took a 3 day weekend if we could rather than press on.
Hey Jude and I were both healthy,fit and neither of us drank or smoked.
Apparently our primary vices were money and family.

Now that I think about it thru these posts,it seems to me the more empowered we were as workers the higher our level of motivation.
There has to be a correlation between feeling like you have the freedom of choice as to how and with whom you work,setting your own pace and deciding how much money you want to make in a week and your drive to see just how dang good you really are.
Those times I worked jobs like that I went home on top of the world and was still buzzin` an hour later.Come payday I and my family were rewarded again for my efforts.
I think maybe I felt so good because it was a challenge I CHOSE for myself rather than something that was dictated or expected by the boss.After negotiating the rate,the boss just stepped aside and let us run.The only contact we had was thru notes or a quick talk to the foreman telling him what materials and consumables we needed.