monstermetal Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Your right it is over 150 ft of rail I was way off base on that. Kind of had my head in the clouds today. But still there is most likely a lot of work needed to retrofit the rail to a new location and have it pass code. You can have a lot of money and fudge things after the fact with code. But lets say some one gets hurt after the fact and sues the home owner and you. Do you think the insurance company is going to cover you when you willfully and with full knowledge built something that was not up to code. How is the home owners insurance company going to react when they found out the rail was installed after an inspection to avoid code issues on the home owners instructions. I see a very expensive and long law suite. I have heard a lot of stories but for the most part I have found inspectors to be on the up and up. I am asked quite frequently to build things that do not meet code. Sometimes for things that are not inspected, other times it will and the home owner just crosses there fingers... I just put right on the invoice "Client requested and accepted ironwork that does not meet current building code and accepts all risk, responsibility and liability" I dont build anything I think is unsafe and I sleep just fine at night Just because it meets "code" does not make it safe.. I have built things that had no chance of passing an inspection, blatant disregard for requirements and passed with flying colors... And I have built stuff that followed the code to a "T", perfect in every way.... that failed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 I'm not sure where it is pictured the same? Maybe you should say what you feel is more “acceptable” I wonder how many of the exceptional craftsmen in the past designed, built and sold their work? Interesting to know if whoever drafted the Louis XV picture actually worked metal. The same picture referred to the architects drawing you attached which appears to be a direct copy from the book I had seen it in. Many of the "exceptional craftsmen" trained their own teams, or sought out specialists in their specific areas of skill and then acted as what I would term Project Managers to get the commission completed, they were probably more active with the design stage than the hands on making bit whilst overseeing the actual production side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted February 11, 2010 Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 Your right it is over 150 ft of rail I was way off base on that. Kind of had my head in the clouds today. But still there is most likely a lot of work needed to retrofit the rail to a new location and have it pass code. You can have a lot of money and fudge things after the fact with code. But lets say some one gets hurt after the fact and sues the home owner and you. Do you think the insurance company is going to cover you when you willfully and with full knowledge built something that was not up to code. How is the home owners insurance company going to react when they found out the rail was installed after an inspection to avoid code issues on the home owners instructions. I see a very expensive and long law suite. I have heard a lot of stories but for the most part I have found inspectors to be on the up and up. My clients have deep pockets and lawyers line up for a feeding frenzy, if they wanted to I could get sued for toe stubbage. The rail is mainly to support ones weight with their hand while walking down the stairs and to keep things from falling off a balcony. I always wondered where they found that kid with a 4" head and why they let it play on stairs anyway? The same picture referred to the architects drawing you attached which appears to be a direct copy from the book I had seen it in. Many of the "exceptional craftsmen" trained their own teams, or sought out specialists in their specific areas of skill and then acted as what I would term Project Managers to get the commission completed, they were probably more active with the design stage than the hands on making bit whilst overseeing the actual production side. I don't have the book, do you have the name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 My clients have deep pockets and lawyers line up for a feeding frenzy, if they wanted to I could get sued for toe stubbage. The rail is mainly to support ones weight with their hand while walking down the stairs and to keep things from falling off a balcony. I always wondered where they found that kid with a 4" head and why they let it play on stairs anyway? I don't have the book, do you have the name? Not off hand, I'll have to trawl through some of the books I have to hand, These for starters, (I have enclosed these details so you may be able to get them through you Library Loan scheme you have over there in the States.) A new booke of drawings invented and desined by John Tijou sold by the author in London 1693 Reproduced by J Starkie Gardner originally Published by B T Batsford 1896 Hampton Court and other quality houses in UK ex V&A 1915 La Ferronnerie moderne, Presentee par H.Clouzot Editions d’art Ch.Moreau 8 Rue dePrague, Paris Contemporary continental hotels screens furnishings etc (Art Noveau?) ex V&A approx 1927 Ferronnierie Ancienne, Epoques Louis XV et Louis XVI Deuxieme Serie A Paris, Chez F.Contet Libraire 101 Rue de Vaugirard 1911 39 plates/motifs at Amiens, Bordeaux, Paris, Reims, Rouen, Tours, Versailles 1911 Ferronnierie Ancienne, Epoques Louis XV et Louis XVI Premiere Serie A Paris, Chez F.Contet Libraire 101 Rue de Vaugirard 1911 41 plates at Amiens, Bordeaux, Chartres, Paris, Rouen, Toulouse, Versailles 1911 Ferronnierie Ancienne Of the 12th to 18th Century, A Paris, Chez F.Contet Editeur d’Art, 9 Rue de Bagneux 1925 37 plates of continental ironwork firedogs, knockers, grills, hinges, wellheads balconies etc 100 items 1925 Ferronnierie Ancienne, Conserves au Musee Calvet et dans divers Hotels D’AVIGNON, A Paris, Chez F.Contet Editeur d’Art, 9 Rue de Bagneux 1926, Various items locks, kitchen utensils, knockers pulls, panels etc approx 500 items. 1926 Recueil de Ferronnierie Ancienne & Moderne Publie par Armand GUERINET, Editeur, 140 Faubourg Saint-Martin, Paris 99 pictures of gates, grills, balconies, staircases etc ex V&A approx 1914 Portfolio of Industrial art ironwork Parts 1-XXVIII 53 Plates from objects and drawings in the South Kensington Museum Reproduced and published by W.Griggs Hanover Street, Peckham S.E 1898 A portfolio of industrial art ironwork, English, French, Flemish, German, Italian Spanish Knockers panels brackets Screens doorhandles gates etc. ex V&A approx 1915 Its definately out of copyright because the book I have was released for sale from The Victoria and Albert Museum in 1909 to 1915 period It is intended to try to get these books, and others, onto CD form so that others can benefit from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 MM, Codes are strange critters and code inspectors even stranger still. In my line of work a code was taken to indicate a minimum standard not the maximum standard. As the senior designer on a project it was always a struggle between the owner, architect and code authority as to what got built. I have been red tagged for having an item designed to well because the inspector was too ignorant to understand that the code he was enforcing was a minimum not a maximum standard. Mr. Yellin's railing is probably better built that the one that will replace it but it does not meet the current concept of acceptable standards. If they were to examine the number of injuries that happen to people on all of Mr. Yellin railings over the years that would be a negligible number. However given the 'nanny' attitude of the world today the governing authorities have to take responsibility for our safety whether it is needed or not, that and the fear of trial lawyers and the litigation that they bring to us. Therefore Mr. Yellin's wonderful set of railings must forever be banned from public access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 If it were left in place as it should be. There would be no problems. That house should be listed as a historic structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 this kind of nonsense makes me despair. can we not take responsibility for our own safety (YES!!!!) and the pay off be that we have one off unique uninhibited pieces of design around us. god help us!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Thompson Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Members of the toddling community could suffer issues around falling. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernforge Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Members of toddling community probably shoundn't be on those stairs by themselves in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The main point is abdication of responsibility. We don`t want to have to watch the toddler or wear sensible footgear or and number of other common sense things when dealing with day to day situations that may be potentially harmful if we don`t put down the cell phone and pay attention. The thing about responsibility is that it doesn`t just go away,it just skips around and pops up in another form. Once a lawyer or a politician(cut from the same material IMO)decides where the responsibility will be found it has morphed from personal responsibility to financial responsibility and somebody must pay in cash for being less than attentive in the first place. Once again that abdication of responsibility kicks in and the insurance company lawyers get involved and if they lose enough money they convince the politicians to make new and better(?) laws so that they can charge more and pay out less and the end result is that a once completely fine and unquestionably beautiful piece of history such as this railing is now considered by law to be useless for it`s intended purpose.A purpose it has fulfilled admirably since before most of us were born. This is obviously a raw nerve with me. Rant off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The main point is abdication of responsibility. We don`t want to have to watch the toddler or wear sensible footgear or and number of other common sense things when dealing with day to day situations that may be potentially harmful if we don`t put down the cell phone and pay attention. The thing about responsibility is that it doesn`t just go away,it just skips around and pops up in another form. Once a lawyer or a politician(cut from the same material IMO)decides where the responsibility will be found it has morphed from personal responsibility to financial responsibility and somebody must pay in cash for being less than attentive in the first place. Once again that abdication of responsibility kicks in and the insurance company lawyers get involved and if they lose enough money they convince the politicians to make new and better(?) laws so that they can charge more and pay out less and the end result is that a once completely fine and unquestionably beautiful piece of history such as this railing is now considered by law to be useless for it`s intended purpose.A purpose it has fulfilled admirably since before most of us were born. This is obviously a raw nerve with me. Rant off. AMEN!! Just as a side note... Try and find a high ranking Democrat who is NOT a Lawyer... I know I am drifting way off topic so I'll keep this short but it seems really odd to me that the masses think of lawyers as scum feeding ambulance chasers... all the way up until they get elected and then for some reason there morals & goals magically transform to serving the greater good... Back to the railing... So Dillon.. I dont even know of any work of this scope that has been done on the west coast the whole time I have been playing with hot iron... I am aware of a few 100K jobs... One guy I met out here did a home with some $2500/ running foot rail (he has closed up shop and broke now) The photos you posted of your ironwork, was that was part of that same LMC job or a diffrent client? (I assume the way I read it there work and yours on the same strucutre ( beautiful stuff by the way) Just curious what percentage of your work are $20K+? Thats one of the main differences I see in the work I am doing and have done in the last year is the overall jobs have gotten smaller... I was doing a couple 50K+ jobs and several 20K-50K jobs a year... last year the biggest thing I did was barley over 20K.... I did a lot more work.. I would guess I put in atleast 600 hours more last year than the year before... and made far less money.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernforge Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I guess they could always separate the panels and sell it one panel at a time to collectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 AMEN!! Just as a side note... Try and find a high ranking Democrat who is NOT a Lawyer... I know I am drifting way off topic so I'll keep this short but it seems really odd to me that the masses think of lawyers as scum feeding ambulance chasers... all the way up until they get elected and then for some reason there morals & goals magically transform to serving the greater good... Back to the railing... So Dillon.. I dont even know of any work of this scope that has been done on the west coast the whole time I have been playing with hot iron... I am aware of a few 100K jobs... One guy I met out here did a home with some $2500/ running foot rail (he has closed up shop and broke now) Are the photos you posted ironwork that was part of your that same LMC job or a diffrent client? ( beautiful stuff by the way) Just curious what percentage of your work are $20K+? Thats one of the main differences I see in the work I am doing and have done in the last year is the overall jobs have gotten smaller... I was doing a couple 50K+ jobs and several 20K-50K jobs a year... last year the biggest thing I did was barley over 20K.... I did a lot more work.. I would guess I put in atleast 600 hours more last year than the year before... and made far less money.... Dillon Forge, LMC and the craftsman from France (don't know his name) all did iron for the same client. A five year, 20 million dollar build out not including some of the rarest museum quality antiques I have ever seen. I think you could find that there are plenty of examples of craftsmen catering to the affluent on the west coast. Look for record sales of homes, who built them and who worked on them, might lead you to some business. If not I guess we can look towards Dubai? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Thanks for the book resource John, ask a question here and you get an answer, wow! Let me know if you here anything about the CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Long way off yet I'm afraid, but will post details as and when available Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 This is about railing, just not Mr. Yellin's railing. When my mother was alive and living in a nursing home they took all the rails of the beds. Well that night she fell out of bed and hit her head on the floor, 3" long cut, 12 stitches, concussion, broken fingers and bruised hip. Next night her roommate feel out of bed and broke her hip and skull fracture. And so it went with other old ladies and gentlemen on the ward. The reason for removing the rails, nationwide 3 elderly women died of entrapment in their bed's railing. The caregivers were having a difficult time keeping the old ladies in bed and off the floor without rails. The decree of the federal health agencies to save deaths from entrapment caused untold misery, pain and suffering across the country. Here again is where you wonder, what in blue blazes were they thinking of? Dillion, That is sometruly outstanding work on the townhouses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Yeah; they could have just screwed in some polycarbonate sheets to the rails to fix the entrapment issue instead of removing the rails...Problem is the liability they would take on *thinking*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I don't think they are removing the rail because of building code issues. It would be fine under existing use or as they say grandfathered in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Commercial codes are a lot stricter on things like that often requiring stuff to be "brought up to code" if any remodeling is done. Our church looked into this as we had an 1880 Adobe "parsonage" and to rent it out we would be required to cut into the original walls and install larger windows in the bedrooms to meet code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 How about the local historical pervation soc. bet the could put an end to all the bs about code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 More than likely it just doesn't fit the new owners concept of what a modern space should look like. Some folk just have no concept of history or craft, they are just about as bright as a $5 gold piece in a mud puddle. <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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