SGropp Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 The recent thread '' Champion power hammer for sale in Seattle'' brought up some thoughts on tool collecting and related matters, I'm curios what other have to say on the subject. From even the most cursory review of the posts on this forum, it's obvious that there are always more people looking for anvils, power hammers and other tools than are available. There's always the controversy over people buying up whatever is out there, either as collectors or as users [ either professional or hobbyist ] while others struggle and search long and hard to find what they need to bring their aspirations to reality. Blacksmith tools are rather unique it that they can literally give generations of hard service but if used with a modicum of skill and minimal care, retain both their usefulness and value for the next generation. Some old tools are just that; worn out , broken , truly obsolete, unsafe and unrepairable. Some of this comes about from misuse, abuse ,ignorance or neglect or as collateral damage from other events. A lot of tools , particularly machinery gets damaged in moving .Some of them were never well designed or well made to begin with. Probably a lot of them in this category should truly be scrapped and the material recycled into something hopefully better. A lot of them however ,particularly the ones that have proven their worth and survived should be saved, rebuilt, repaired , modernized for safety perhaps and used as intended as the next step in the ongoing continuum of history. User or collector, it's better to save and protect this heritage of tools than to have it scrapped and lost forever. Americans,in particular have the means to accumulate far more than they can use immediately. My shop is filled with a lifetime collection of tools, reflecting an evolving and ongoing career of making things. All of them have been used at some point, many are still in daily use. In most of the rest of the world there is enough there in my one man shop to provide full time employment to a whole village of people. Buy and use what you can, take care of it, repair it with skill and pass it on when you're done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james gonzalez Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Americans might now have the means to accumulate machine tools because the United States was once a center of industry. Manufacturing does not appear to be a substantial portion of the country's economy anymore. The tools that helped the country attain it's position in the world are now relics, appreciated by few. I love old machines for their aesthetics and also because I can make money with them. Tool lust is something I have suffered from. Older smiths I have known at some point stop buying toys. They know what they like to make and they have all they need to make it. Having a small urban shop is one way to control tool lust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan W Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I am always on the lookout for another hammer, but in my defence I've gotten really picky over the last year and I wont buy just anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I would say that there are plenty of tools out there, and the market dictates the price,. of course it would be nice if every anvil was available to a new blacksmith for $50, and power hammers for $500. The fact is lots of folks (and, shock, blacksmiths) have got money, and if an anvil is $500, and a power hammer $5000 they are not really that expensive. The forums tend to bring out lots of people looking for inexpensive tools (and complaining they cant afford them because of the collectors), but the reality is for every person whos doing this there is probably 10 people who buy what they need, pay the current market price, and go about their day without worrying about it. I never cease to be amazed at the number of smiths I deal with who just say 'go on then, ill have one' on a $6000 power hammer. Accumulation of tools is a luxuary we can all enjoy, and Im happiest spending money on tools that hold their value like blacksmiths kit (makes me sad to spend $1000 on a laptop thats only worth $300 in a year!), ive got 3 good anvils now, and I can only see that number increasing (even though I forge once every couple of weeks if im lucky!) buy the good old stuff whilst you can folks :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 John, my favorite is the guy who says he can't afford a hammer or ironworker or whatever and he's driving around in a $40 - 50K pickup truck. My wife and I drove beaters while I was accumulating equipment. Just a matter of priorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Boy, did you hit the nail on the head, Grant. People are always commenting on power hammer prices (hydraulic press proces, any machine's price) and the majority of them truly don't have a list of hammer attributes that are fundamental to dtermining what a machine is worth. One of my closest blacksmithing buddies first comment on almost any tool is "How much does it cost?" Meanwhile it takes him a loooong time to figure out how something works or is done. I just shake my head sometimes. Harry Truman once chastised one of his workers as knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. My easiest to sell to customers have been working smiths who saw what my machines could do compared to, say, their Little Giants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRIPP Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 What you want is not always what you need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrjohnson Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 when making a decision to invest in a tool, the cost is only one component of the decision. For any investment, you have to also look at the return or savings. If you are collecting tools for the sake of collecting tools, that is one thing, but if you are serious about blacksmithing, you have to look at the savings the tool will give you. I got into powerhammers because it was obvious that I could not do this for a lifetime without wearing out my joints. With a power hammer, I could also take my work to another level that would not have been possible with the standard hammer and anvil. I purchased an Anyang 88 lb hammer and forged the Maniscus sculpture (see James Johnson Metalsmith) and that one piece of work paid for 75% of the cost of the hammer. The material cost was about $200 and I had about two weeks into the project. This was a project that it would have been impossible to make with a hammer and anvil ( it was forged from 8" by 8" by 1" thick plate)... so rather than just looking at the cost, you have to look at what you can do with the tool and how much you can make with the tool. On power hammers, the initial cost is important, but you have to look at the total cost including if needed an air compressor plus long term operating costs. You have to also compare capabilities and not just buy the biggest hammer "poundage". I would suggest testing alternative hammers out... Make sure the hammer will do the work you need to have done... both from a power/hitting capability and also the controllability of the hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. K. Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 There are more hammers out there for sale than people think. They're just at prices most people don't want to pay or in inconvenient locations to go pick up. For the last year or two I've really scoured the net looking for a powerhammer. It took a large time investment but it payed off. There are quite a few out there for sale and I'm sure if I would have taken the time to inquire with local blacksmithing groups I probably could have located even more for sale. I paid a hefty chunk of change for the Beaudry I just bought but it's the hammer I was looking for, was only an hour or two from my house, and I was able to arrange a flexible payment/pickup schedule. Its something I really wanted not only as a useful blacksmithing tool but as an interesting piece of America's manufacturing and engineering history. I don't make that much money but I save what I can until I have enough to buy what I want, its a system that usually works for me. Heck I know a few people who probably spend $5000/yr just on fancy coffee or to go out gambling. Me, I'd rather spend that on some equipment :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 A second hand hammer for instance, if you know what it is that you want and one comes along at a time when you cannot really afford..bite the bullet..invest and eat thin soup for a time..appreciation is at its best here! and hence will always remain.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Pein Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Boy, did you hit the nail on the head, Grant. People are always commenting on power hammer prices (hydraulic press proces, any machine's price) and the majority of them truly don't have a list of hammer attributes that are fundamental to dtermining what a machine is worth. One of my closest blacksmithing buddies first comment on almost any tool is "How much does it cost?" Meanwhile it takes him a loooong time to figure out how something works or is done. I just shake my head sometimes. Harry Truman once chastised one of his workers as knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. My easiest to sell to customers have been working smiths who saw what my machines could do compared to, say, their Little Giants. This will only apply to professionals. I've been tasked with pricing and advising the company I work for on the purchase/lease of a new plotter. I had two different people at work mention that these things "are the price of a car". I mentioned that to one of the sales reps. and she shot back, without missing a beat - "that's right - someones going to be able to buy a new car with the money they get from the increased productivity." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I don't like to remind my wife that My shop (1200 square ft) is almost twice the size of our house (750) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 John, you're doin' pretty good actually. I've never been able to support one square foot of home with less than two square feet of shop. Just make sure she understands the relationship between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 wow no kidding... I have almost 10,000 sq feet of shop space and triple that of fenced yard.... And am not that far from having to move in and ditch the house all together.... My wife is not to keen on sharing the bedroom with a milling machine though..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpworks Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 i'm sick also,i too have toolitus and it's terminal .every time i go to an auction i drag more crap home.but it's always something i might need.is that what everybody says?it's like this little tool devil saying c'mon man you need this.i can't resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 If you're a professional, the right tools make money and the better and more expensive ones make more money in return faster. The way the tax system is set up [ at least in the US ] there is the real incentive to reinvest profits in tooling and equipment, both as a means to increase productivity or expand capability and as a deduction from income instead of paying more taxes. As I read it there is no way to write off ones labor in designing, building ,repairing or upgrading equipment in house. The material and parts ,yes but not your own labor. Is this correct? I'm wondering from the point of view as a sole proprietor of a corporation. I make a lot of my own tooling, but if it is available it is usually more economical to buy it outright and use it on the paying jobs. Blacksmiths are noted for spending half a day to make a tool that will save them a few minutes. Frequently, that is just the way it has to be to get what you need to make what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 If you're a professional, the right tools make money and the better and more expensive ones make more money in return faster. The way the tax system is set up [ at least in the US ] there is the real incentive to reinvest profits in tooling and equipment, both as a means to increase productivity or expand capability and as a deduction from income instead of paying more taxes. As I read it there is no way to write off ones labor in designing, building ,repairing or upgrading equipment in house. The material and parts ,yes but not your own labor. Is this correct? I'm wondering from the point of view as a sole proprietor of a corporation. I make a lot of my own tooling, but if it is available it is usually more economical to buy it outright and use it on the paying jobs. Blacksmiths are noted for spending half a day to make a tool that will save them a few minutes. Frequently, that is just the way it has to be to get what you need to make what you want. Your absolutely right... If you looked at nothing but what my accountant sees you would wonder why in the world I was willing to work 80 hours a week to make $18,000 a year... but for the last three years I have grossed over $200K and managed to sink 40 to 60 grand a year into upgrading and expanding capability... all while "profiting" the equivalent of minimum wage, or less... The only way to get ahead as a small (read one man shop) is to sacrifice green taxable money and reinvest in yourself... Im going to gross pretty close to 200K this year when many guys just like me are closing up shop in these parts... The key is I buy good used stuff, the best I can afford. And I mean that, Its all paid for, I don't owe a dime on anything in my shop and there is nothing I need bad enough to borrow money to buy... Sometimes Ive had to sell machinery I would have liked to keep to buy other machinery.... But you cant keep all the girls you kiss either.... ( I guess nor would I want to ) One of the reasons I do it is because of my love of tools and equipment. For many a tool or machine is just the means to an end.. For me many times the tool itself is the end. I have a 6 foot long tool box full of my "good" handtools that stays locked most days, I use the "shop" tools for most things, and my "shop" tools are probably better than most... I bet I have at least a hundred tools in my shop that have never been used... I have 10 milk crates full of my antique tool collection that used to adorn the walls of my office back when I bought and sold tools for a living. I have a 100 year old micro power hacksaw that has been cleaned up and pinstriped besides my desk and a collection of mini vises on my bookshelf... I live and breath tools Now I am not a brand snob and I don't typically buy things new... for me there is no joy in walking on the Snap On truck and dumping a zillion bucks on a shiny wrench set.... But I own several sets of Snap On wrenches that I got in trades or bought right... My rule is I wont pay more than I think I could sell them for on any given day... Which as anyone who has ever had to sell anything in one day knows is about half of what its worth... So its not just about getting the tool.... At least half of it is finding the deal, the right deal..... There is no joy in buying anything the "hard way" Not to say there is no value in making your own tooling or equipment but the fact of the matter is I cant afford my own time... Shoot my shop charges $95/hr and don't hardly make minimum wage! But there usually is money in the budget for a new gizmo to make my time more valuable on someone elses job My goal is 10 or 15 years down the road I'll have a really nice shop that is all paid for, and I can tell everyone else to kick rocks and work on my own stuff... But until then I'll just be collecting tools and working my tail off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 well i figure a new tool once in a wile is part of my payoff ... i like tools especially old ones and like to make um work ! if the hammer that started this thread had been in arizona i would have been there ta get it ... i also agree about the deal being part of it ... if i cant get a deal ime not likeley to buy unless its something small and i have a need for it . power hammers are now in the "like but dont NEED" catagory . not that i wont buy but its gona have ta be a deal ... and nothing too big cause i only got so much room..still looking for flat belt equiptment like a small ironworker .... the shop at the museum is looking good tho !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Now we have a fellow out here who buys anvils and powerhammers and sets them in a building and doesn't use them at all---he's not a smith. They are not set up to use just in rows on the floor. I find this an odd mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I have also seen several shops that all the work gets done in a very small area because most of the shop is filled with very useful tools that cannot be used because it would be a multiple day job to get other tools out of the way so that the tool needed so that it can be used. Often work is done in a less efficient way because not only can they not use the tool that would be the perfect tool but there is no room to work on the job. I find I am often fighting internal battles over feeding the tool addiction and keeping enough space in the shop to build things efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 In days past I was all about getting as many tools as I could get at a decent price or caught my fancy. Like the bumper sticker said "He who has the most tools when he dies wins!". Well I have come to think of it as the one who most enjoys working with them while alive wins. A pile of tools ain't nothing to you when your dead and if you can't use them to create something they are pretty much worthless because your wife is going to sell to some other man cheap. Yes, I have some real old stuff that has served it's time and is in need of preservation, but a happy tool for the most part is like a happy man, they never really retire, they wear out completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Stegmeier Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 I love good tools. I love good deals. I just moved my shop... URGH! In the process I came to the conclusion I had been quite indiscriminate in my collecting. All things in moderation, including "Aquire'tis". I resolve henceforth, that if I find a good deal on something I will get it, and intend to turn it around and move it on to some new home, if it is something that I don't NEED. I walk away from lots of tools, because I don't need them or like that style of tool, but if the price was right, I might store it long enough to take it to a conference or hammer-in and move it down the road to someone who would appreciate it more than I do:-) Power hammers are another matter entirely, with a power hammer the question is only do I have the discretionary income available (the answer has sadly been NO, nearly everytime I happen across a lonely hammer;-) Monster Metal is in a laudable and envieable position, NO Debt!, working his butt off, which results in Good CashFlow, which he has reinvested in his obsession. A great way to run a business, something I know objectively, but have sadly never been able to realize in my present reality;-) But something to aspire to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 http://cgi.ebay.com/500-Pound-Chambersberg-Air-Forging-Hammer_W0QQitemZ120481146 724QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0d3c6764 This link was posted across the street; nice hammer if you have the electrical service to drive it. As Clifton Ralph says, 'bet it will knock the dirt out from under your fingernails'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 The other side of the coin is that we throw away an incredible amount of still usable equipment and material. one of my side projects is periodically going to the dump and rescuing machines that have been cast off.I`m to the point now where I can`t house anymore machines or electric motors.Most of these machines are woodworking related and thrown away just because they are rusty.I clean them,oil them,tune them and then give them away to my woodworking buddies who can`t afford to buy power tools period,never mind the sweet old iron of the past. In return they bring back things like wrought iron chain, bronze prop shafts from boats,bronze fittings,tool steel.stainless.I beams and channel and anything they feel I may remotely need.I can`t remember when the last time I had to buy stock for a personal project. Being a poorboy pretty much all my life I know that if you don`t have a lot of money then you usually have more time than others.Take your skills,do what you do best on what you can find that helps others and it usually comes back around. You don`t always need a lot of money to get what you want or need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 That Chambersburg is priced right at what they bring these days. If I needed it I'd grab that "buy now" price. Looks like a good hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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