Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) I've bought many a "solution looking for a problem". With only one notable exception, they have all made me money. One machine I bought 16 years ago was a powered fly press or "friction screw press". It sat for a little while and I played with it squishing this and that until I had a feel for what it was good for. Decided it would be pretty good at making tong with progressive dies. Anyone know the "rest of the story"? Well, 100,000 pair of tongs later, I'd have to say buying that machine was a "smart"(fortuitous?)decision. The one exception is O.K too. 'Bout ten years ago I decided that I would get into the rolled products business, doing real "gooshy" stuff, not like the flatbar some were doing. Got all excited about it and Spent more than $100,000.00 on my brainstorm. Well, when I get myself convinced of something, watch out. Got a nice #4 National rolling machine with 10 inch rolls, wow, 3 feet per second rolling bar. Then I needed a 4-axis CNC mill so I bought a Haas VF-2, $70,000.00 with all the bell and whistles. Well, you know, these thing don't come with anything, sorta like a Christmas tree. So, another $10,000.00 for ornaments (tooling). Well, ya can't program very complex rolls without software, another $10,000.00. (am I boring you yet?). Turns out that these things eat up hot steel like a white shark goes thru tuna! And ya gotta heat really long pieces too. And then there's marketing the products. Well, in the mean time, my swage business skyrocketed because the Haas and the software (and my EDM) made it possible to have an idea in the morning and be making parts in the afternoon! So........ anyone interested in a really nice 16,000 pound roll forging machine? I buy toys and THEN find ways they can make me money, and NO I didn't learn THAT in Harvard Business School! Edited August 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Nice story, but most of us don't have $100K laying around for experiments. Heck, I would venture a guess that most of us don't have $500 laying around to risk on taking unknown paths... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD85 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 That's great for you. Tool fever + huge budget = success? I am not jealous by any means. If you have $100k to blow on machines/tools that you do not know how to use then congratulations. You probably earned those funds in some way and you have the right to spend them as you wish. I do not understand the intention of this post. Do you feel accomplished? Do you wish to "educate" IFI members? I love this craft very much. Am pretty new (been forging for only five months when the temperature hasn't been 100+ degrees) but what draws me most to it is creating something useful or good looking from "nothing". I have a decent shop/smithy. When my immovable situation changes 26 September 2010, I will be attending school in Austin to fine tune this craft as well as welding/fabrication and CAD. When I see people like you bragging on the internet It makes me sad. For one, unless anyone here personally knows you and can vouch for your success, it means nothing. Even if there is someone that can back you up, it is sad. Usually, the "rich" do not need to brag on internet forums and seldom have the time for it. Feel free to PM. -Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welder19 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Most here know who he is, but for those of you who don't I can see who that post may have seemed a bit arrogant. welder19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) I can understand the feeling, so I don't take it personally. I earned my money BLACKSMITHING! In my first shop (1972) I had a coal forge and a 100 lb Brooks Anvil I bought from Montgomery Ward. I had a buzz-box welder and a cutting torch and that was about it but for the usual hand tools. I always bought equipment that I thought could advance me and often didn't know if they would pay. My family often did without because I HAD to buy some machine. My obsession, but it paid off in the long run. I took many chances, maybe I have to take chances. Why do you say such things as "money to blow on machinery" and "you don't know how to use"? The money paid back many time the investment so it was hardly "blown", AND I certainly knew how to use them! You assume way too much. For someone who is "not jealous by any means" you sure got a lot of anger, son. If you consider money spent on equipment as money "blown" maybe you better get a paying job. The concept is the same even if the dollar amounts change. I'm semi-retired now although I still make blacksmith tools cause I enjoy it and I'm not ready for that rocking chair yet. I like to tell stories that are informative, interesting, funny or even stupid or crazy. If any of them offend you, well that's your decision. I've been judged before, so get in line. Personally, I think you're the one "on their high horse". Oh yeah, and I'm hardly "rich" and I'll spend my time right here interacting with the people I enjoy spending my time with. So, how is it you "know" how the rich spend their time? DJhammerd: I often didn't have $500 laying around either, but that didn't stop me, only slowed me a little. The path less traveled............ Edited August 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgtwister Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 well i'm right there with you on buying equitment nakedanvil but not on that scale though i started years ago with a buzz box and dads forge and anvil and have bought many things over the years now i have a small machine shop set up and small forge and everything i have has made me money especialy now when i need to fall back on something or anything to make ends meet .when the word gets around you have this or that people seak you out to do things and its cash and for the people who don't understand they probably never will understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Thanks orgtwister, I needed a hug, no wait, I mean positive feedback, yeah that's it, positive feedback. Dang almost forgot my "man talk" there for a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseshoe182 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Hey good storie nakedanvil, you sound like a cool dude to know. Yeah some poeple have a couple of dollars and some don't, so what. You must have a vauge idea of the direction of where you are going with a big dollar item, at least you have the xxxx to have a go. I get ideas all the time, sometimes I make them and sometimes not, sometimes I will just draw them up on my three dimensional drawing computer program, and I can make it later. I find those that travel the path less traveled most interesting. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithgartner Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 1972, You were smithing when smithing wasn't cool, ( as "cool" as it is now ). I think it is great you had the foresight to take the risks, you did, no doubt with some trepidation and possibly grief, over whether the expenditures, would all work out, glad they did, and continue to, with the skill and dedication, to your buisness, and craft. I love the "Christmas tree" analogy. I'm in the refrigeration buissness, I built one of if not, the first trailor mounted refrigerant reclaiming machines, in my area, to service, grocery and other large jobs, before government regulations on venting refrigerants, hocked everything I had. Paid back many times over. Thank You, Sir, for this and many other posts, all enjoyable and informative. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD85 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 nakedanvil, It would be hypocritical of me to attack your posting. While I still believe your initial posting was arrogant, I do the same thing as you (with a smaller budget). For example, I recently bought a really nice used engine driven arc welder. I have had no training on arc welding but am learning thanks to youtube, weldingweb.com's forum, and trial/error. A few months ago, I bought a small wirefeed MIG welder, and plasma cutter shortly after. Again, had never even seen someone weld/cut in person before. I have a nice old used PW, my first "real" anvil. I wouldn't even begin to call myself a real blacksmith. While I can and have made many nice things with it, you could argue that I do not know how to use it yet (to it's full potential at least). I apologize for attacking your post. After re-reading it, I realized I do the same things. The internet is a free place where anyone can say whatever they feel and I had no right being the forum police when I have not even been a member or an aspiring smith for very long. Please accept my apology and keep on doing what you do, it obviously works. Have a good day Sir, -Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I couldn't agree more with your approach. The first ironworker, tig, air hammer,etc, I used was the one I bought. Sometimes you just know that some machines or processes are going to suit your work or make you some cash to keep the wolves at bay. I've never seen a pullmax in person and only have a few ideas of what they can do but man I want one, a BIG one. I decided that I would get into the rolled products business, doing real "gooshy" stuff, not like the flatbar some were doing What happened to the gooshy experiments? Sounds interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Naked anvil, you and I think alike If I find a "deal" on something that is hard to find and I know I can use I go get it recently I got a set of pattern rollers with 5 or six patterns they didnt come with a machine but the bearings are in good shape, I only invested 150 dollars plus all the other costs of my time and gear/chain drive and such that i will need to come up with, but having the abillity to make interesting cap rail's and pickets I know will pay off in the long run. I have no life savings I just spent all of it on a anyang 88 and a couple dies I have used the same hammer before a few times but i really dont have much experiance using one but its hard to find someone to teach you and my personal plan is to use my tools do some projects and earn enough money to go to europe and Re-learn everything apparently know, In my mind doing such things is not a risk its just a reason to make sure I put all my effort in because failure is a choice and its one choice I refuse to take part in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) First I'd like to say that I appreciate your apology very much and I'm sorry if I got a bit testy, the 'ol defense mechanisms kicking in ya know. The paradigm here is tough with no facial expression or body language or vocal cues, people tend to get offended easier. Am I arrogant? No one likes to think they are, self assesment is a tough thing and I avoid those. I alway like to think I'm quite humble, after all, I've got a lot to be humble about. I'll probably keep right on posting the way I do and offending the occasional dude, but that's me, take me as you will. Can't hardly stay mad at someone named "Grant" now can I? Are we havin' fun yet? It's great to get into "sensitive" areas sometimes. As long as we can keep the emotional level under control. We always need to remember we're here to have fun, learn, interact and socialize in a really new medium with few rules of conduct yet established. Edited August 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Horseshoe182: Yeah "a vague idea" is probably a good description. Often I'm trying to justify something I wanted all along. Conclusion first, supporting evidence second. Yeah, that works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Maybe arrogance is something we all want to have but not show. Think about it; it's really kind or arrogant to be a "newby" blacksmith and think you can jump in and be able to compete with the "big boy" at some point, right? Yeah, I think we all like to keep our arrogance to ourselves and want others to do the same. I like the way this thread is evolving actually. It's a healthy group that can discuss subjects like this, without too much discord. Besides, if I can stir up a bees-nest, I go to bed happy. I'm like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 GD85 (Grant) Good recovery bro. I've met and spoken with the other Grant (Sarver) on numerous occasions. I was able to inject tone and inflection along with a small understanding of his personality and humor types into his initial post and there was no hint of arrogance in it. I love the forums and email etc. as much as anyone, but I learned a big, hard lesson about 10 years ago. My dad and I had a misunderstanding over the internet that was just that. And it cost me 5 years of time with my pops. Anyway, the point being that I'm going to give you some advice even though you didn't ask for it. Don't take any post on a forum personal until it's been addressed to you personally. It'll help keep you off the blook pressure meds etc. And. Grant is a very good blacksmith, and a heck of a nice guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Naked please keep your posts and answers on here flowing. One thing that happens with an open site like this is folks with no experience answer questions without a personal foundation to back the data with. You and a lot of folks have my eye. Even if the thread is not of a personal interest to me there are many names that draw me to the thread so I can see what their take is. Thanks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 No more chastising GD85. He raised a worthwhile point and this thread has become the better for it. I've certainly inserted my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion. But, you CAN keep the "honey" coming, I'm sucking it up! Well, it's nice to know we are all friends here and we can talk about anything in candor. (hmm, "Candor"? Isn't that in Maine?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 It's common for entrepreneurs to buy a piece of machinery without having a use for it. I've worked in contract manufacturing my entire career and it's the same no matter where you go - either the job turns up and the businessman risks the money on the machine or he buys the machine and then sells the resulting product or time as best he can. Some machines never work out and some are goldmines - at my current employer, we bought a new $45K CNC lathe a couple years ago that has done almost nothing in production because it has a different language and program interface than anything else in the plant, so nobody will use it. BTW, I did something similar with a manual lathe. Picked it up for scrap cost, which at the time was $100 and then did a job that made $2800 in profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 In my days as lab supervisor I was widely known in the corporation for picking up other peoples "trash" instruments. With only two exceptions over twenty years I was eventually able to use them for dedicated analysis of specific products and save myself and my crew much trouble and aggravation when management over reached on production schedules. I've always applied the same attitude toward all my tools. If I get a good deal on a sound but limping tool I'll buy it on spec. Back when I had some money I'd have loved to have a nice rolling mill to work with. I don't know Grant Sarver personally, but I know of him through one of my dearest friends. He is about as far from arrogant personally as a buddist saint. However, like any skilled, sucessful, artist/craftsman, he does have a degree of confidence and understanding of his skills that could be mistaken for arrogance by some one that didn't know his story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) It's really cool how "new" technology trickles down. I remember when an electron microscope was the eighth wonder of the world and cost millions$$$. Couple of yours age there was one at a gov surplus auction. I don't know Charlotte personally, but I've developed a fondness and healthy respect for her knowledge and experience. She's always willing to share and never talks down to anyone, very nice web personality and a real asset to this site. You da gal, Charlotte! And thanks for the kind words. "buddist saint"? Edited August 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 mcraigl: Good thing for us all to remember, man. And always forgive and forget. Blessed are the peacemakers for they are nuclear! Sorry, I don't think I can go two minutes with a straight face. Glad you guys put up with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) Now "maybe" I can elaborate on the story without sounding arrogant. I'm trying, but I am aware of how this could be interpreted. (My disclaimer, maybe I need to put it in my signature). At the time I didn't have 100K "laying around", in fact I was into the bank at that time for about 2 million! And yes, I can relate to what some are thinking, but, if you think about it many families have a 1/2 million dollar mortgage. This is not uncommon for a modest size business. Good credit is your best friend (and your worst enemy). Haas financed the machine at 0% (what we call "free" money). Enretrprenures are almost by definition "risk takers". Who else walks away from a perfectly good job to do what they "dream of"? I am a "risk taker", did it when I only had a few dollars in my pocket and never stopped when I had more. Most people who "lose everything" are right back where they were in three years! The risk is smaller than you can imagine. It's just the thought of losing everything that scares most people off. Think about it; you're back to driving a junker, maybe live in a rental, take a paying job. BIG FAT DEAL! It's just like "the good old days". You're still better off than 90% of the world's population and, dang it, you tried! You still got your health, hopefully your family, life is still good. And remember: nothing succeeds like failure! Most successful people have failed in business TWICE before they succeeded. And yeah, I had a couple of "false starts". Went back to work for awhile and applied what I had learned the next time. If you want to be in business for yourself you should get used to it. Accountants are rarely entreprenures, they ran the numbers! Maybe I am arrogant, but never elitist. I haven't had to work a day in the last thirty-five, cause I'm just doing what I enjoy! Yes! It IS worth it! Edited August 3, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Gd85: I hope I was gracious enough in my acceptance of your most gracious apology. Just want you to know that I was being as sincere as I believe you were. I would not want you to think I was being facetious in that matter. Outright apologies are hard to come by and I appreciate yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Hey grant I can't agree enough with wat you are saying, you have to buy the piece of gear when you have the chance, (across the dinner table, "Oh yea honey, guess what I brought another power hammer today". "YOU WHAT, DONT YOU KNOW WE GOT NO MONEY IN THE BANK," "I do now sweetest".) Being a good accountant does not guarantee business success, nor does a uni degree, nor does entreprenurial skill, nor does being a skilled craftsman or any of these qualities. The one thing that has the most bearing on whether some one will succeed in business is application and dedication to your dreams, ie never give up. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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