oldtime blacksmiths nuts / bolts

[TimB]

Where did the blacksmiths of yesteryear get their nuts and bolts? Did they make them themselves and if so, did they make taps and dies or did they twist square rods for the threads. Would useing threaded rod to make a swage work?

[Frosty]

Yes, they made their own and it was a major problem because everybody had their own size and pitch. Most of the older blacksmithing books show how it was done.

And no, twisting rod doesn't make threaded rod.

Frosty

[forgemaster]

Threaded rod would be to soft to use to make a set of swages from. Not meaning to make the swages from the threaded rod as such but using the rod to stamp the impression in the swages. If you could make the thread from something else that has some hardness to it yes. We have a set of swages that we use for making a thread form called rope thread, it's used on the end of drill rods. Basically a big rounded thread resembling rope. Forge the rod to size, swage it in plain swages oversize, then carefully one blow at a time run the end in the rope form swages, winding out and in as you give careful single blows.
Old bolts, when Sydney Powerhouse museum pulled down one of their oldest beam engines for overhaul they threw all the nuts and bolts into a drum as they dissassembled it.
When it came time to reassemble it they found that bolt A would only thread into nut A and so on, but they had neglected to number all the nuts to bolts, it took a couple of weeks of sitting on the floor with a big pile of nuts n bolts till they had it all sorted.

Phil

[David Einhorn]

The 1861 Ordnance Manual as well as the Mordecai drawings show that by the 1850s fasteners including screws, bolts, nuts, washers, and rivets were standardized for use in military equipment. It would have been too difficult to repair equipment if non-standard fasteners were used. Fastenal.com carries square-headed bolts, and square nuts (plain finish) that appear pretty close to the specifications in the Ordinance manuals of that time period. According to a guy at the local Fastenal store, the Park Service buys fasteners from them to repair their canon carriages.

For safety purposes, as well as for historical, I purchase "plain finish" (unplated) fasteners and threaded rod from them. Plain finish lag bolts are good for reforging into hooks to screw into overhead beams to hang the heavy examples of your work. I keep a supply of various sized plain finish square and hex-nuts in specially marked boxes so as to not accidentally weld on a plated fastener.

I have made some of the fasteners for the Traveling Forge from plain-finished threaded rod, if the fastener was unavailable otherwise. Fasteners that needed to be made included the "vise-bolt" and bolt on the lunette for the prop-pole.

So where smiths got their fasteners likely depended on the time period you are talking about. As the 1800s progressed, it became more likely that smiths bought their fasteners as well as wheel parts, etc. One smith said he was going to make everything including the fasteners from scratch for his group's Traveling Forge; their project did not get very far.

Edited April 28, 2009 by UnicornForge

[irnsrgn]

I agree with Unicorn.

Before bolts, nuts and nails became a commonly manufactured product. The apprentices in the shops made nails from old horseshoes to learn how to draw and head. Any spare time the smiths had was spent making bolts, nuts and rivets to replentish their small supply on hand.

[ThomasPowers]

Don't forget that a lot more things were rivited together too and repair might involve chiselling off the rivet heads and replacement when done.

However in Moxon's Mechanics Exercises; published 1703 he mentions that every smith should have a die plate for making bolts; small one by the engraving as would be suitable for repair work on guns.

[Reid Neilsen]

All excellent points in this thread. I worked at a living history museum for a while and people often used to ask this question. We had a set of taps and dies that were hand made that we would show people. As stated before, the real problem was that once you had a nut and bolt made by a smith, you would not be able to go to a smith in another place and have him make you a perfectly matching mate(with threads that matched exactly) if a part broke or was lost. Often the nuts were square(because it is easier - less labor) and had very coarse threads.

I often used to describe it to people this way: These types of jobs were the bread a butter of most smiths thoughout the 19th century. By this point, the smith had become much more of a repair man and maker of various replacement parts than a true manufacturer. I have read in several sources that the smith gradually became relagated to fix-it work and farrier work as time went on if they wanted to stay in business. You can look at the ledgers and work logs of smiths from the 1600's to the 1900's and see this trend with the proliferation of the industrial revolution.