Ross_FL Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) I fired my forge last night to get a feel of it's limitations. I've fired it a few times before to test it's functionality and tweak it, but last night it stayed on for about an hour. Basically, there is a 6" long cylinder with 1" thick walls made from castable refractory. The inside is coated with itc. The wool was wrapped around and it was inserted into a steel can. Uncoated soft brick is used to close the ends. I will eventually replace with hard brick and coat with itc. It takes about 20 minutes to really get going, and stays glowing for about half an hour after I turn the gas off. The piece of metal I used in the test was hot bar stock 20" long x 2" wide x 1/4" thick. It would get right in between orange and white, but not what I think would be welding temperature, which is what I eventually want it to do for me. Overall, the forge works great besides for that one detail. Does anyone have any ideas or tweaks to boost the temp? BTW - I was running about 5 psi from a 10 psi max regulator. I can turn it up, but I fear I might melt the aluminum conduit. I will be replacing it eventually with something more suited. Thanks! Edited April 9, 2009 by steve sells photo removed, by request Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_FL Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Also, I noticed after this firing of the forge, the wool has become stiff possibly even expanded, which actually enhances the forge as cylinder is now pretty much immobilized inside the steel can. You can also see the other items I have to work with right now (itc and brick) but I also have about 2 more feet of wool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 More pressure I say! and stuff more wool in the back door to completely close it. Your first pic is a funny look'n forge. Hmmmm, just trying to figure how you light it??? the others look good though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_FL Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 That's not a forge, that's a dumb friend who thinks his Xterra can conquer anything. I must have added it because when I made the thread id didn't give me the option to see the pictures. Is there a way to delete it? Also, I was wondering about adding more pressure, I just didn't want to damage anything before I posted a few pictures here, you know, to get a go ahead of some sorts. I can def. put a section of wool in the back, I will do that tonight when I turn the forge back on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Ross, ask Glenn to remove the unwanted pic. I know photography can be deceiving, but WOW! It sure looks hot enough to weld! You don't really need white hot. Light yellow, even yellow will weld high carbon. What have you based your idea that it can't weld on? You say you let it run, but did you actually try to heat anything to temp and see if it will bond? Crank it up another couple pounds and try it. That set up really looks like it should do the job! 'Specially the last pic!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tech413 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I don't think it is possible for a gas forge to get to a "white" heat. I weld in my gasser and it isn't white. I get a good bright yellow and have no problem welding. When I weld, I turn it up to 12-15 psi, I usually forge at 3-8. A gas forge just plain won't get as hot as coal or charcoal. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_FL Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I based my opinion on two factors, or qualifiers. The first, I wanted the color to match the chart below, for forging temp you should see the 3rd down, a yellow, or 1250C, according to the sites data. Second, I wanted to see the piece emitting quite a bit of energy in the form of light because my chemistry background would tell me I need particles excited to the point of photon (light) ejection, at which point bonding would be able to take place. My assessment, I came pretty close to the color, I am sure I could kick the pressure up a notch, but I wasn't anywhere close to the light I wanted to see. I am also basing this on what I have seen in videos on the internet in which highly radiant metals and smoking metals are being pulled out and put in an auto hammer (which I don't have). I will try again, I just wanted to post pictures of last night before I went all in with the pressure. Tonight I will reassemble the forge in an area that will be a little bit safer in case of failure. Question, should I remove the aluminum conduit from the forge exterior? I looked today while I was on lunch and could not find a steel conduit that size. Any other ideas for housing the T-Rex burner? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_FL Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I don't think it is possible for a gas forge to get to a "white" heat. I weld in my gasser and it isn't white. I get a good bright yellow and have no problem welding. A gas forge just plain won't get as hot as coal or charcoal. Adam I understand that. The portability of the gas forge was what attracted me to it. I would love to have the space for a coal forge. Also, I don't know how readily available coal is in central Florida. Question, would adding coal bits inside the forge enhance it in any way? I hear burning coal has a pleasant smell, much more so then the powder coat burning off my steel bucket!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_FL Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Ross, ask Glenn to remove the unwanted pic. I know photography can be deceiving, but WOW! It sure looks hot enough to weld! You don't really need white hot. Light yellow, even yellow will weld high carbon. What have you based your idea that it can't weld on? You say you let it run, but did you actually try to heat anything to temp and see if it will bond? Crank it up another couple pounds and try it. That set up really looks like it should do the job! 'Specially the last pic!! BTW, that last picture looking directly into the forge was at the pinnacle of last nights heat, the 3rd from the last was shortly after firing it up, not much heat at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Again, photography can be deceiving, but this is one of the hottest gassers I have seen to date. He claims to be melting his ceramic wool and had to switch to to a castable liner. May not be white hot but it's close, But I still think you are there, Ross, if not very very close!! http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/vertical-gas-forge-10984/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I based my opinion on two factors, or qualifiers. The first, I wanted the color to match the chart below, emitting quite a bit of energy in the form of light because my chemistry background would tell me I need particles excited to the point of photon (light) ejection, at which point bonding would be able to take place. what chart? also as far as photon emissions, your theory is not exactly correct, as glowing a dull red, is still a photon emission, but not enough excitement to weld by, but you do understand the general idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 It is very possible to get white hot is a gas forge. It is more difficult in an atmospheric gas forge. The famous Sandia Gas forge that ABANA sold plans for featured a recuperating rig on it that melted a piece of steel accidentaly left in the forge! Atmospheric forges have problems when you go up in altitude. If you wife makes adjustments in cooking times because of it your forge will have problems if atmospheric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azIRonSmith Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Sounds like you're getting plenty hot. You really don't want it so hot that it melts your metal. If you want to do any regular forging that might actually be too hot! Between yellow and white seems to be a good range for gas forge welding. The real question is it may be at forging temperature but is it at forging conditions? What does that mean? Is the metal clean and scale free? Is the atmosphere lean, neutral or rich? Have you fluxed the metal properly? All of these questions need to right in addition to just having a certain temperature. I would suggest you do a simple forge welding test. Put a piece of 1/4" round rod and weld it to itself. Then you will know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 My naturally aspirated burners will melt steel without much trouble. One built from Mike Porter's gen 5 plans managed to melt 3,000f kiln shelf and a bunch of 3,200f ceramic chips in a home made chip bed forge. "White" heat is more a term than and actual color. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross_FL Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Again, photography can be deceiving, but this is one of the hottest gassers I have seen to date. He claims to be melting his ceramic wool and had to switch to to a castable liner. May not be white hot but it's close, But I still think you are there, Ross, if not very very close!! http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/vertical-gas-forge-10984/ Wow, that does look like a hot forge. It looks to me like his forge is built a little more rigid then mine, I don't see any wool and his liner is much thicker. I also like his housing, but I don't have access to a welder so I am stuck with the can. That flame is intense, I havn't gotten that from my T-Rex, maybe I should check the flame next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 id say the entrance to the forge mite be too open put the two bricks holding up the other one on there sides, it should allow it to keep more heat inside.just my input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Hey Dodge, Thats my forge Ive melted bars in it if left in for to long with the gas wound up (you can see them droop and drip when wearing a no.3 welding shade!) Its got 2" of ceramic wool, and half inch of castable inside that. Its now got a plate of castable about 1 1/2 thick under the lid. the floors a couple of inchs of wool, some castable on top of that and now about 1/4" of flux! Just as a side note you dont really need to be anywhere near that hot for welding carbon steels. A light orange colour is usually fine. The smoking you see on billets just before they are welded is usually the flux smoldering. I find a decent billet soak time to be just as important as out n out hot. My welding has got a lot better since I invested in a pair of green welding shades (no.3 lens), you can then easily judge when the billet temp is even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I don't think it is possible for a gas forge to get to a "white" heat. I weld in my gasser and it isn't white. I get a good bright yellow and have no problem welding. When I weld, I turn it up to 12-15 psi, I usually forge at 3-8. A gas forge just plain won't get as hot as coal or charcoal. Adam Gas forge do get to white heat, or at least hot enough to melt mild steel if you are not careful. Atmospheric forges are a little more finiky about their construction and tuning but will still melt mild steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Demetrius Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I hear burning coal has a pleasant smell Blacksmiths think so; neighbors don't always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I have not yet cranked up my Diamondback 2-burner forge to weld in but it is supposed to be able to reach welding heat. The manufacturer said it would take 15-25 psi which sound way too high to me. The dragons breath would make it un-useable at 25 psi. It gets pretty hot at 15 psi but I have not let it run long enough to see if it will get hotter. The ability to reach welding heat is summed up in the basic equation: Heat in minus heat losses = retained heat. If you are blowing all your heat out the doors, you will have to wait a while to get really hot because only the radiant heat from the burner is heating the refractories. If your doors have to be wide open to accommodate the gas influx, you are radiating heat to the cold area outside your forge through the doors. To get maximum heat, you need to maintain a stoichiometric (Gawd I love that word!) ratio between the propane and the oxygen. I have no idea how you can measure the gas ratios in an aspirated forge in your garage. To heck with it, just crank it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 M. Demetrius, run a gasser and you learn to love the smell of burning arm hair.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) My vertical forge that dodge links to gets up to a useable welding heat in about 20 mins now its got the cast refractory in it (much denser, much longer heat up time than wool) When its been lit for an hour or two it gets into a whole different realm of hot, thats when you cant look at it white. Its real nice when it gets like that as I can turn the gas right down to a trickle and it will stay like that all day, Very efficient. If you leave the gas turned up I think its to hot for patternwelding. Dunno why, just a feel thing. Basically it reaches a nice equilibrium after an hour or so, next to no dragons breath and hot! edit, just bought a real nice solid fuel forge (not collected it yet) , the reason? kinda like the smell and you can make better toast on a coke forge! (and when i have blacksmiths visiting that dont often use gassers it will save them prodding my lining with the bar twist jab motion that solid forge users have!) Edited May 12, 2009 by John N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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