Rich Hale Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Ellen I cannot find your e mail address anywhere. E me and I will send you some info. rjhale@ix.netcom.com Thanks Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Ellen: ok on the wire diameter I have found that 0.040 (18 ga...) works best for me..make sure it is dead soft/fully annealed... as for twisting, yes, you can use a electric drill (make sure it is reversable..) and a "eye" bolt to do it.. I twist in 150 ft lengths at a time...the wire WILL need to be annealed once it is twisted as it gets very springy from work hardening during the twisting opperations and make sure you wear face/eye protection while twisting.. If you have any questions at all...please feel free to ask... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Thanks Jim, will order some wire and give it a try. Final quesion: on the billets for the class, what do you recommend we weld up for that? So far so good on the billet welding, ready now to try the higher qualitity stuff. Will do a couple more practice billets to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Ellen (and everyone else interested): On the materials..what ever you are happy with welding up that you can stick 100% of the time...I sugest either a 10XX series like 1060 to 1095 and either L-6, 14N20 or A203D/E or similar for contrast. Stay away from O-1 or any of the richer alloys, as these can present difficulties when patterning if one is not acustomed to using them. I am going on the understanding that everyone there KNOWS how to make good, solid welds. I will show how to pattern and how to get repeatable patterns from faggot to faggot... faggot sizes I have still to figure ouit..I am thinking this out. drawing once the patterning is completed will be very quick as I will use Julius to flatten and square..THis way everyone will go home with several patterned pieces to play with. IF there is tie I will show edge steeling on composite european style cored blade construction..but that all depends upon time limits and desires of those attending. I will get the rest figured out in the next couple of weeks and I will let folks know as things get decided... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Thanks Jim, sounds good. The 1095 for billets came today, just waiting on the 14N20. Will do some more practice billets. Ground the edges of my first practice billet and no cold shuts. One solid piece. All with hand hammer on my anvil. Felt good! You are right on when you say "get it clean". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Ellen: Ok on the welding..if you can get solid, clean welds using mild steel, which is to me at least a real PITA to get to stick decently, when you get into anything with any sort of hardenable C content you will think that this is so #$^%(())()('ing easy.....thta is until you FUBAR a few pieces due to the fact that they got too hot...Everyone does this...I still do every now and then so.... What temp (colour) are you welding the MS at??? Now when you use the Ni allow stuff you MIGHT have a biut of a problem with the flux....I have found that adding some dry boric acid and a little red iron oxide powder to the anhydrous borax will improve it for Ni alloys...makde it a bit more agressive and that attacts the oxides a bit better. BEWARE it WILL eat your refractory at an alarming rate, but not as badly as my "steel glue" flux.. Anyway sounds like you are off to a good start here...if you get hung up on anything,, drop me a line... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 Jim, I'm sure *everyone* in the class is just dieing to get to the "edge steeling on composite european style cored blade construction" part... As to billet sizes; I've been rather restricted as with no power to the shop my 30# champion is just sitting there laughing at me; but I could always do a road trip and borrow a couple of hours of hammer time from a smith some where. The helmet billets were made from 1.25" wide sawmill bandsaw resaw blades and wide strapping. Pay no attention to Ellen; she has livestock---a clear indication that the heat's gotten to her! Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Well, the 1018 was welded at what I call a "slippery" orange with the borax bubbling, and yes it does go after the floor of my forge, and yes, I have a couple of kiln shelves on order to fix that, and a box of kawool for repairs. Today is a 1095 billet, six inches long, 6 layers, just came in to drink some water and get ready after grinding it clean. I have some powdered boric acid I keep for washing out my horses eyes when they need some TLC, but where should I look for red iron oxide powder? The bronze alloy .040 wire is ordered from McMaster Carr. I feel stupid, cause when I watched your tape again last night you specifically said 18 ga or .040 phosphor bronze.......well if I was real smart I'd be rich instead of pounding on hot iron, riding horses, and happy as if I had good looks and money in the bank.....Grin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Well, billet #2 of 1095 is welded (I hope). I will grind it clean and take a look in a bit. It ended up 3/8" wider, and 2" longer than when I started , and sounded sold on the anvil after the second pass. I was tempted to grab a 3# hammer but didn't feel strong enough to swing it today. It welded better (it seemed) than the 1018, but took a lot more physical effort, unless I was just tired from yesterday. My 15N20 came today, and also some 1080, so if this billet welded, billet #3 tomorrow will be fancier in composition....maybe. I might stick will the less expensive material for awhile.......decisions, decisions. Jim, I must say, you sure know how to show a girl a good time! Welding up billets when it's 107F out. Well, it's good for me. Maybe I'll lose some weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 THOMAS P. That is part what makes Ellen purty. I betcha she will even pat your ole horned hat and take a little time to make you feel important, even when she knows your not.LOL ELLEN you keep up on this pattern welding and we will have to have a combination of your steel and my grinding and handles, before we even get out to JIMS. You any good at sheaths. I hate them.Grin They are a necessary evil, huh? Made two leather working knives today, for my saddlemaking buddy. O1 and Rosewood slabs, NS pins. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 Sandpile, I've been a father to 4 kids and they are all doing me proud---even the ones I was not *the* father of. Makes me feel more important than any politician or celebrity out there. What I'm afraid of is that the first time we meet up with Ellen is that she'll take one look at us and then try to worm us... Ellen, have you tried the stainless tray filled with the cheapest clay based kitty litter they make to save your forge floor? IIRC His Purple Passionatistess suggested it quite some time ago on a forum no longer around... Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 For those of you going to Jims that want some productive practice on billets without spending alot..203e and mild steel weld up real nice, K and G lists 1/4" thick 203e at .25 cents a sq inch. Weld some of it up,,,and try what I think is the most basic pattern, a twist,,I square the bar up and then knock the corners down a bit,,get it to welding heat and twist it up tight. AS many layers as you like,,I prefer at least 100. when it is all done you have some really fine materials for spurs, guards butt caps or whatever. I will etch real nice and you will continue the infection Jim has started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 THOMAS You are probably partly right. You being from a clan of ridge-running, whisky making, coon, fox , and squirrel hunters. you might ought to show up wearing a number three wash tub for a helmet. just in case Ellen deciedes to beat you over the head and shoulders, severly.LOL Now me, She knows that me being a stove-up, reject, cow-puncher that has already had all the mis-treatment from broncs, bad cows, bog-holes, smokey fires, and soured up cooks. She will just naturally take it a little easyier on me.He heh. ELLEN I have some 3/16" flat stainless you want me to dome up a six or eight inch piece for your forge?? chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Thomas, and Chuck, not to worry, I like smiths and you two characters are up there on my "good" list. Besides, I'm really meek and mellow as can be. The 1095 billet welded up nicely. It took a lot more physical effort than the 1018, that or I was tired from the day before. Taking some rest time; I don't want to go in for surgery as tired and sore as I am today.....I wish Thor was here! I'll try and post a picture; it looks better in real life, but any bevels reflect the light in a picture and make it look ground at a huge angle when it's just a tad. I didn't bother to go back and grind it smooth cause I could see it was welded, and its get heated, drawn, rewelded, etc. Next is to make a billet with the 15N20 and 1080 that came yesterday; drawing will be done after Thor arrives. Already cleaning a rearranging my shop. I'm going to run a copper line 3/4" for the air, should that be the L or the M tubing? I'm not which is which but one is $47 for 20', the other is $63 for 20'. I imagine the heavier tubing will last longer in case of vibration. Thanks for all the help and encouragement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ellen: Looks like you are on a good start. You see what I mean about the higher C content welding "easier" than the mild steel..It moves a bit slower than the lower C stuff but it "wants to stick" when welding. As a suggestion I would refrain from using any higher alloy stuff..stick with the 10XX and the L-6/15N20 until you are so intimate with it that you can weld it just by looking at it hard. Believe me there are 100's of ways of screwing this up. Warning: just because it looks welded on the edges doesn't mean it is welded all the way through. I will explain what to look for while working as far as open welds during the classes. It really is a "energy sucker" to think you have a welded bar and then find out during patterning that you got a couple of cold shuts dead center... BUT I can show you how to correct those in 90% of the cases...I have made just about every mistake that anyone could make...and I am still coming up with new ways to totally FUBAR a piece!! Knowing your material is as important, no more important, than just about anything else in pattern welding. As you have found out this isn't as diffcult as alot of folks would like you to believe. This is after all "Dark Age Tech"...Yeah it is hot work, and it can be tiring but "difficult"?? Not really..just takes time and practice...Now some patterns can be a real PITA due to the time involved but 95% of the patterns out there? quite within the abilities of most anyone who is willing to practice and take the time to do it right... Oh.get a heavier hammer than 3#..I would say work up to a 4# as yes the hammer is heavier but it is a much deeper "bump" of a strike and you will not nedd to "power it down" as much to "hit as hard" using arm power but the impact is more of a "squeeze or nudge" than a sharper "blow"..and I have found out that the "deeper impact" makes for an easier weld (I use an 8# hammer to weld...or most everything else so....).. JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Sandpile---you never let on that you had met my kinfolk when you were up in the hills! (My college roomate's mother came from a family that made shine and would tell tales about it on visits---I *never* asked what some of my cousins were involved in; that's *their* business; but I wouldn't be surprised if you had met a couple in your current occupation...) Me I'm from the "good" side of the family even if my Father was the first to ever have graduated from highschool...we fought tooth and nail to get off the old worn out hill farms and stood in complete bewilderment when the back to the land folk wanted to go back to them...I still have a share in some land in Cedarville AR though. I was hoping that Ellen would see that I came from a poor hill folk background and take pity on me; but knowing you're an old cowpolk would realize that you wouldn't even wake up for coffee mornings till you had been thrown and then drug through a mile or two of prickily pear Back to business: Anybody know what they use for the backside of bi metallic bandsaw blades? I've been given a bunch of worn out ones to play with. Tip for cutting bandsaw blades for billets: cut from the back--the front edge is hardened and will mess up your snips but the back is pretty soft and then you let the front edge break off rather than shear. I have a set of bulldog hand snips for "Stainless and Alloy Steels" that I mount in a vise and c clamp a stop on the bench and cut a bunch of billit pieces all at the same time. For the big re-saw blades I use a beverly shear. I have some 1' wide bandsaw blade from a mill that I need to billetize sometime but have not had the right tool yet... Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Hey Tommy Joe Jim-Bob Boy!! I had noi idea you were an old farm boy!?? I was raised on a farm in Western Pennsylvania...right in the middle of the Amish Germans...in fact the man who got me started in blacksmithing, Herr Hauffmann was Amish and man could Frau Hoffmann ever cook...she was amazing.... Anyway on the bi-metals..my "sources" say it's 1045 on the backing for tensile strength.. This is for the Sandvick blades that I use in my little saw...Other manufacturers I have no idea but I would venture a SWAG that the materials are pretty much the same from factory to factory, but I cannot say for sure... I have been playing with M-2 saw blades every now and then when I feel like a masochist....I just run these through my bench shear which pretty much munches anything I put in it... Well I am back to work.. JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Thanks Jim, I intend to get lots of practice after I recover from the surgery. Will try to do one more billet before I go in. My experience in life has been that if you want to do something badly enough and work up a good sweat at it on a steady basis, you can develop the requisite skills. You may not be as much of an "artist" as someone who is really talented, but I don't let that stop me from doing my best. How much boric acid (powdered) should I add to the anhydrous borax? and is there a source for the red iron oxide you mentioned, and if so, how much of it should be added to the mix? Want to do my next billet out of 1080 and 15N20. The 10XX series seem to get plenty hard for anything I need to do. I like to forge knives out of O-1 when they are homogenious because I like the steel to work with and for it's edge holding abilitites, but no, I don't intend to use it for Damascus. I did order some 5160 for homogenious blades, and maybe a Claymore down the road just for fun....it's in my ancestry and I'd like to have one, but one I made....from scratch. Just this funny streak I have. I like to make things. Sharp things, and also things that go bang. I'll work on the bigger hammers, but I don't think an 8# is in my future unless someone else holds the stock while I strike with both hands.....grin! But Thor should be able to deliver light hits as well as heavy ones, I know the Big Blue's can from recent personal experience, and have been told by those I respect that John's Iron Kiss has better control and lots more power than a Big Blue. I'll be sure to post a full report...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Well I'm more of the side that crawled out of the hills, My father got a scholarship to college after he graduated HS (and married!) Ended up working for NASA and AT&T and retired a bigwhig. His father ran an implement business and farmed some on the side---with a 6th grade education IIRC. My other grandfathers: one farmed cotton in OK and died young when the tractor over turned and the next one farmed minnows! 160 acres of ponds and a vertical monopoly bait business in AR. We sold off our share in the cotton land to the cousin that's still farming it---told my mother when she asked if we should keep it that all it was good for was cotton and if I ever said I wanted to be a cotton farmer she should take a cast iron skillet and whop me up on the side of the head with it. (they *pay* me to sit in an air conditioned office here!) My great grandfather was the smith in cedarville AR (NW corner along AR59) and had 900+ acres when he died; most were sold off but I still have a share of what's left---scrub oak, stoney land and enough mosquitos that Toshiro Mufune on speed couldn't deal with them all. The branch still in Cedarville is a tad notorious in the region. 1045; hmm may need to juice that up a bit; but will probably go OK with L6 though I would like a bit more C... Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ellen: On the boric acid...I would go 1 part boric acid to 5 parts anhydrous borax as a start..on the powdered iron oxide ..I get mine from the same place I get my anhydrous from..my local ceramics supplier. Make sure you get the REAl stuff and not the "concrete dye" synthetic crud.... and 1/2 part red iron oxide to the mix ands you should weld like a dream...this is for the most part the majopr ingredients in my "Steel Glue" flux by the way... I had no ideas you were going under the knife...nothing too serious I hope...SWMBO went in a year ago last Sunday for major surgery and I almost lost her..she is doing much better now, and the problems that have plagued her for the last 18 years have gone so the surgery was a total success...I burried one wife already...I do NOT want to do that again...Please let us all know that you are ok when you are able??? I do have to say that if I wasn't happily married....hummmmmmm..a woman who likes guns...swings a hammer and all that..Spank me MOMMA!!! Anyway...back on track....I like O-1 for some things...then again I am crazy enough to hand forge 440C or ATS34/154 CM too so don't go by me...all in all O-1 is a fine steel but not as "forgiving" as a 10xx series is, especially for beginners...Plus the richer alloy can be a PITA welding....and if you aren;t careful....weld shears can happen if you don't work hot enough...work too hot and well.....crumble city... Well I am back at work... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Jim, Thanks for the tips on possible separation of welds on the billet. I sectioned it on the band saw and right in the middle there was about 1.5" where one layer had not welded at all; you probably saw that in the photo, you sly fox,you! Grin. Jim, keep the wife you have. I am way too ornery for anyone to live with. It's been tried. No go, sigh! Heck, most days I don't even get along with myself.....grin! Course I always say I was married to half a horse and supporting the whole critter so it was much better to get rid of the half and get a whole one. Grin! Surgery is no big deal this time. Last year I had a busted gut and peritonitis, and that was major; this is just taking out a kidney which has a tumor inside of it. Since the other one is working just fine doc says best to take it out, too many times biopsies just spread the darn stuff if it is cancerous. Laparascopic (didn't know they could do that) so should only be locked up for two days then home, easy does it for two to three weeks, then ease back into my routine. Thank you for asking though, and yes, I will keep you all posted. This was actually a big factor in my buying a power hammer. Made me realize it is not wise to postpone that which you would really like to do indefinitely, because our time here is finite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Well, I think my problems on the second billet were self inflicted (aren't they always?). My anyhdrous borax had not arrived and I used plain, that I think was a biggy. Also, I was tired from the day before and used too light of a hammer (2#). My 3# felt glued to the floor! Have a good 4# on order, didn't have one before, also a good 3# on order, my current 3# is good for some things but not for a welding hammer I think. Gotta have a good selection of the right hammers. I do have the borix acid on order as well as the red iron oxide (ceramic grade), so will fix up a brew. Someone asked me elsewhere if you were still using fluorspar, I said I would ask. That should be not too difficult to obtain, as I recall it is primary ingredient in Bartender's Friend, but I also recall that it is quite toxic if memory serves me right. Now if I understood your formula right, I would take say 5 ounces of Anhydrous borax, 1 ounce of boric acid and 1/2 ounce of red iron oxide. Just making sure I understand correctly as I want to get it right. Will weld up another billet with the anyhdrous borax and a bigger hammer, would like to do it before Wednesdays snip and take party, but it may not get done. Depends on other things I must do. Thanks again for all of your generous help; I do appreciate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Ellen: You pretty much have the idea on the amounts. This is why I say "parts" rather than giving measurements, as everyone all over the world uses different measuring systems so if I give "part measures" then it "translates" easier. On hammer weights. You do not have to hit it hard at all te weld. All you need to do is "bump it" hard enough to bring the surfaces into contact and if they are clean and at the right temperature they will stick..(OK I am talking in general terms here). This is why I say use a heavier hammer and don't "power it down"...Let the weight of the hammer do the work. A slower, heavier blow, to me welds better than a faster "more shocking" strike from a lighter hammer. How thick of pieces are you starting with?? I usually start with 0.063" 10XX and 0.035" L-6.. I weld up like 30 to 40 layers to start off...cuts down on time by a good deal.. On the flourspar, yes I still use it but in very small amounts as not much is needed to really soup up the flux... Weld seperations?? You sure it wasn't a cold shut or inclusion?? All look pretty much the same until you take them apart. A cold shut would look simply like a black surface, an inclusion would have "crud and dirt" trapped in it and a weld speration, well the non welded surfaces woulds appear "silvery grey" in colour and clean and free of any oxidation. All are "repairable" with practice, but they are more readily preventable by using the right materails, keeping clean and at the right temperature. Like I said, this isn't all that hard to do..It is a fair bit of work but it's not that technically difficult... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Well, it would be properly be a cold shut as the surfaces were black, but not a lot of crud. just not welded at all. I was stacking 7 or 8 layers of 1/8" stock together, about 6" long, and 1 " wide, like on your VHS tape. The heavier "bump" makes a lot of sense to me and that will be next on my list to try. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Ellen: Sounds like a cold shut to me....you need to soak the peice at heat for a bit so it penetrates all the way into the centre or else it doesn't weld as you have found out... Easy fix though..reheat, reflux, let the flux soak in for a bit and reweld...should stick... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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