Alan Evans

It all depends on your individual work patterns I think. I find it suits me and my work to leave my steel plate bench clear and have mounted my vice on an tripod base which I can bolt to the floor if required.

 

Nothing you have done is undoable so you can always unmount one or both vices if you need a clear surface...or get another bench!

 

I can't see from the photographs but is the floor level wood block attached to the bench or just resting on the floor? Is the weight of the vice taken directly off the floor or off the bench top?

You do not need a thrust washer as Brian rightly says, but as swedefiddle and I said it improves the vice use. In the rare/unlikely event of needing to open the jaws to their full extent you could always remove the thrust bearing in a matter of seconds.
Alan

A Limited Liability Company (LLC) is a business structure allowed by state statute. Each state may use different regulations.

 

I copied that from the IRS website.

ah thank you, I have written a terribly witty and interesting reply three times so far and it has disappeared into the ether each time. It was something about curls to curlicues and tonsure to tongs and the transferable element of skills and experience learnt in one field informing your work in another, this is a poor substitute but you may get the drift.

 

@Larry H definite +1, you must be your own sternest critic in order to improve. If ever you're 100per cent happy with your work, stop! You have no where else to go!

I make things out of metal with my hammer on an anvil and I sell them, its an LLC now and I keep track of my earnings for tax purposes. I'm definitely still new compared to others in the biz, but I own a small blacksmith shop, so call me what you will.

 

Ive been a barber for the past 6 years though, transitioning over to the smithy life, just over a year in and Im loving it!

Hey Whatyouwill what is an LLC?

 I won't give this thread another thought... go out and be a blacksmith!

 

Good advice...but a pity you're giving up on the thread it is proving fascinating!

 

I have learned from it that Francis Whitaker was a much more down to earth and humane man than `I had been led to believe, thank you Doc for that post.

 

I have learned that Basher (despite his name) can come over all poetically eloquent (even if he can't spell Blacksmith!) and DanP did put his money where his mouth was. And from Colleen where that perceptive quote came from.

 

I found too many familiar statements in Toolish's list as well.

 

Back to the OP and Pughman's concerns though...

 

Blacksmith is just a term for someone who works hot iron or steel...all of the adjectives that go in front of the word determine the quality or type of the their work, good, bad, traditional, shoeing, industrial, artist, experienced, time served, apprentice, professional, amateur.....

 

I could add that the only person I ever worked myself up to asking to leave my employ, said in defence of a totally un-saleable piece of work that he was a qualified Blacksmith with a certificate to prove it. 

 

I always think of myself as an amateur, despite blacksmithing being my only source of income for 40 odd years. Amateur in the sense of doing it for love...I have a favourite and oft spouted conceit that "nobody could pay me enough to be a blacksmith, it's a dirty sweaty dangerous job and you have to be driven to do it...not paid to!"

 

But then I always wanted to be an old hippy!

 

The drug of the forging process is sooo addictive.

 

Alan

Thomas, I may have asked you this before, but do you have any clues as to whether the brazed coil thread was a creative repair or original manufacture?

Alan

The cup washers are radiused to allow for the angle change as the jaws open and close, so if you introduce a thrust washer/bearing that goes in between the cup washer and jaw obviously.

All my leg vices I washed out the thread box and packed in some graphite grease, I always intended to do it regularly to stop the grinding grit wearing the thread....the road to hell is paved with good intentions!

Alan

Is there any way to easily tell if this vise is wrough iron? It has the older style bench mount with key and wedge. But I'm not sure how to tell its age or composition otherwise. The thrust bearing sounds like a very good idea.

The bench mount being a drop forging or casting makes me think it is newer rather than older, but the lack of chamfers and the forgework of the vice look older than the bench mount. But what do I know? Someone on here will have made a study I am sure.

With regard to the thrust bearing/washer..... it does appear to have a cup washer when I zoom in, is that right?

It looks a fine serviceable vice. What is the thread like? Anything else you can fix easily.

Alan

Good Morning,
 
I use a large flat washer (make one) and two clutch release bearings (thrust bearings). The release bearings are available from your local auto repair scrap pile or auto parts store. Most of them are similar when you take the body of the throw-out bearing apart (usually 1 1/2" ID or more). It makes the post vice work wonderful, less friction when pinching something and then releasing with less effort.
 
I always keep a pile in my locker at work. When I see one on the ground, it magically jumps into my locker!! :)
 
Neil

Thrust bearings definitely a good thing, all the energy goes into the grip rather than the friction.

I have found that ordinary ball bearing races that size have sufficient axial thrust for a vice, obviously dedicated thrust bearings are better.

Alan

Alan,  This smith started as a farrier in 1979  then became New York City, NY's blacksmith and worked their until he just retired.  The work you see on his website is his personal work while he worked for NY.  You can't imagine what the diversity of his work for the City was.
 
The perspective is that he worked his entire working life moving metal.  Now he can make what he sees in his minds eye.  How many can say the same?

Too true. And my apologies, I am struggling to use my mum's iPad and I had not got past the first gallery link when I posted.....removes foot from mouth....obviously a man of many parts.

My interest is always in the art/innovation/ideas rather than purely technical side. Having said that I have built loads of tools to enable me to do things technically. This thread is about blacksmithing which is a technical process so my arty farty side track was innapropriate.

To the OP my answer has been covered by many others. My definition is that if you manipulate a piece of hot iron or steel you are doing blacksmith's work....the quality or technical proficiency could be good or bad.

Whether your aesthetic refers to the forms of the past or present and is either abstract or figurative is a more interesting (for me)'topic for another thread so I will stop going on about it!

Interesting interpretation of "putting things in perspective"... I found the work obviously technically competent but pretty narrow (or at least focussed) in aesthetic range.

 

I definitely think a rambling discussion started off by DanP  "Which brings me to the verge of going on ramble through my thoughts on ironwork, forge-work, fabrication, and an analysis of their place in the history of applied arts." would serve to put blacksmithing in perspective better for me.

 

Alan

dan p you should - thats where it gets interesting in my oppinion - its probably all been said but the grey areas still concern me! having said that, the cigarette thing is obviously important too though...... you must APPLy yourself....

 

+1 to the interesting grey areas.....please find time to ramble for our benefit DanP

 

Alan

Yes, I do not know of any common ones that can't be heated and forged.

 

As Brian says they require at least 50% more oomph to move it though.

 

Check it with a magnet, unless you make exotic things at work it is likely to be 300 or 400 series.

 

300 non magnetic 400 magnetic.

 

304 common architectural grade, 316 the most stain resistant, 440 the higher carbon hardenable version for knife blades etc.

 

Loads of info on the interweb, wikipedia is fairly direct.....

Oops, spot the deliberate mistake, I have just edited my earlier post to say what I meant!.... that I use the fine tooth blade for tube and the coarse one for solid.

 

I am sure the coarser tooth helps blade longevity by preventing the dreaded stainless work hardening by enabling you to "high-feed-low-speed"

 

I use the coarser toothed blades on thinner stuff by cutting it on flat...or bundling bars together so that all the weight does not come onto one tooth. Of course we would not be able to cut any diameter round bar if we stuck to the minimum 3 tooth rule religiously! 

 

I have made up a few hot sets to cut under the hammer, mainly radius cutters of either positive or negative rake which make short work of rounding up the end of a bit of 2".  If I can though, I try and calculate my volumes precisely and leave the end as forged, I love the compound barrel curves you get, they take an age to reproduce with the grinder if you make some too long!

 

Alan

Alan was saying they were twice the price of others.. looks like they are half the price? 601 series - haltbar M42 93" x 3/4", 6-10 toothpitch is $25? I was planning on getting some lenox blades and they are $50 a piece.

Great!... half the price and twice the life! No losers here!

 

I had some Lenox hole saws and they seemed very good, but about the same as Starrett.  It was about 15 years ago and bi metal technology was all the rage, the salesman did show off one of their bi metal hand hacksaw blades which possibly were M42 teeth. He tied it in a knot....most impressive!

 

I must admit the "twice the price" was just a figure of speech, I presumed they would be at a premium because they are so good and wanted to make sure you were not put off trying them if they cost more up front. When I started buying them the M42s were more expensive than the Starrett blade I used to buy in a bulk roll and splice to length with silver solder. The first brand I had was DoALL (which I believe is USA? ) but my supplier started using his own boxes recently Cobra M42 was on the last label.

 

I use 6/10 tpi for tube and angle and 4/6 tpi for solid.  My old Elliot saw takes a 3/4" blade 116" long just in case that has any bearing.

 

Of course I may be recommending old technology, I have been using these for such a long time, starting when they were the new thing, maybe the $50 Lenox ones you costed are ten times longer life again! You might even wear out your new machine before the blade...a bit like the disc pads on a car's brakes, they are so hard nowadays you almost replace the disc and pad at the same rate!

 

Alan

Thanks for all the input, my 4x6 band saw just wasn't doing what I needed, breaking blades and not cutting straight. I need to re-cut some ends on my 3x4 tubing for my forging press build with this new saw as well, so far the test cuts are coming out extremely straight and its much faster even with the downfeed set real slow.

 

New Grizzly G0561!! Paid for with profits from the shop, its a good feeling.

 

Very nice too. 

 

The thing that transformed my band saw experience was discovering M42 variable pitch blades. We went from replacing the blade every few weeks to them lasting over a year...and that included cutting lots of 316 Stainless.

 

Maybe double the price but 10 times the life.

 

Alan

 The only limitation I can see is the size of stock he'll be able to effectively handle under a power hammer, as heavier stock needs heavier tongs and he'll be limited by the diameter of the tongs at his grip.

It may not be too much of a limitation, I rarely use tongs for bar work under the power hammer. If the project allows I prefer to cut a double length piece and use one for a handle and then turn it around and forge the second or I weld on a handle or wedge on a carry bar. 

 

For manipulating chunks/blocks tongs are vital of course, but the chunk weight should be taken by the pallet and the tongs just used to hold it in the correct aspect and position, so only quite light tongs are necessary.

 

Clifton Ralph said something along the lines of "the tongs do not have to carry the bar but are just to keep you on the end of it!" so forging a tenon or welding a small piece on the end of the workpiece for lighter tongs to grip is another possibility.

I think the drip pan could be significantly smaller than the one shown.  That thing looks as big as a dinner plate!  Totally ruins any lines the stand might have had.

 

The drip dish for a processional candlestick does need to be a lot larger than one for a static holder, think tilting/wobbling candle and bare hands....

 

If you want a smaller disc, one way is to have a temporary/moveable disc which can be positioned just below the flame and moved down over the candle life. Another is to use a clear glass or polycarbonate disc which will be visually less intrusive.

 

Alan

I found a photo of my small bowl tool drawer.  Different tools made up over the years for different projects.

 

The smaller solid ball tools were domed in the lathe and then used to forge the final profile in the bottom tool.

 

 

The larger ones were formed in the press by themselves! Well sort of. I started with a 100mm(4") length of Ø150mm (Ø6") tube wrapped/welded a bit of Ø16mm (Ø5/8") around the rim pushed a disc of 12mm (1/2") plate into it with a variety of different radii bar chumps to give the hemispherical profile; welded a bit of Ø25mm (Ø1") to fit the fly press chuck and used a thick washer/sleeve to take the pressure from the face of the chuck. Using that as the top tool I made a series of different depth bowls to act as intermediates; either drop in bottom tools, or, by welding a chucking peg on, top tools.

 

For all sinking the main problem is the edge buckling. That can be controlled that by trapping the edge between top and bottom forming bowls or virtually eradicating by being generous with the bowl material thickness. The thicker the material the easier to control.

Two processes, sinking or raising. Much quicker to sink. You can look up the differences....

 

Kiss engineering is a tree stump with a hollow(s) gouged or ground out of the end grain, can be with hot or cold metal provided you don't mind a bit of wood smoke. Sinking, always start from the outside edge and work in to the centre in concentric circles. If it is thin sheet and you get a buckle forming, use heat and start from the inside nearer the centre, flatten the softer bent part without forging it (use a round faced box mallet) work out towards the edge unbending it to ensure you do not get a fold.

 

The larger the face of the sinking hammer the better, think steel mushroom, dishing a large area a little bit is quicker and less problematic (kinks and folds) than moving a small area radically with a ball pein. If you are trying to make a hemisphere use at least a couple of different bowl forms, shallow to start and then the deeper one. The reason being you can use the intermediate woodbowl to true the kinks, the metal only touches the edges of the hollow until it has taken up the same radius.

 

Best of luck, Alan

 

Next step is to use a press, fly or hydraulic and make a series of top an bottom tools for the various radii of bowl you need. One heat hemisphere in thicker material then is easy.

Herewith photos of heat shields.

 

I note your "almost identical to mine" four legged rheostat support stand! We must just go to the same forge-furniture-r-us store!

 

Hi Olly, Course coming up next weekend, I can show and explain what you are discussing, also there is some coke dust and firebricks  you can have to help fill the surround around the 'nest', don't forget your notebook and camera(s)

Well there's an offer you can't refuse!

 

A picture is worth a 1000 words

A demonstration is worth a 1000 pictures

Doing it yourself is worth a 1000 demonstrations!

Hi Alan,

Any chance you could send me a photo of your hearth or of an example of the mud/ash/brick swans nest arrangment.  I'm quite sure where to aim to have the fire in relation to the tue.  

Cheers,

 

Olly

Herewith a quick sketch of the back blast arrangement, I will take a photo of the heat shields when I go over to the forge later.

The note about drying the breeze on the front is basic fire control, you have probably already experienced the joy of a bit of wet coke exploding and the hot bits sticking to your lip!

 

You can see the prop stand system, really handy, works best on a packed earth floor.

 

Alan

I was given the remains of Alan Knight's hearth when we moved the forge to Hanbury. He bought a new one and the first thing he did was cut a new hole in the back plate and raise the tue up.

 

I am really sorry I did not start reading your thread until you had already got so far and can well understand your reluctance to ruin your lovely metalwork on the word of some faceless cove on an internet forum. Alcosa have always made them to that design I can't understand why they never changed, presumably most of their customers have coped!

 

You can always do it later if you find it a problem! If most of your work is on the end of bars you may never need to get at the centre. You can just log my configuration away in your "to solve a future problem compartment" 

I am confused.  Punching letters does not seem like punching a deep hole.  Letters can be punched cold.  Deep holes is another thing.

 

I understood that the "deep hole" was to create a sleeve to hold the punch securely but enable the O.P. to see the position of the punch's business end clearly.

 

Even with such a holder I would still reckon to use a guide rail clamped to the work piece to keep the punches inline and oriented.

 

Alan