Alan Evans

Yes you are. It was just stood upright on the brazing table and a weld fillet run around it's base.

"I don't like torqueing them even using the original screw as if the screw/screwbox gets damaged you are in a world of hurt!"

 

Good point. The screw thread is definitely the most difficult bit to replace or repair, I would hate to be responsible for someone to damage their vice.

 

The vices I have used the "physician heal thyself" trick on had threads in good condition and my block was placed close to the hinge so there was maximum leverage. As they were amongst the first bits of kit I bought I did mine in the days before I had presses, a solid floor to tie anything down to, or any other tools that would have enabled me to do it any other way. I reckoned it was a self aligning jig and if the screw thread was strong enough to twist it cold then it should be robust enough to untwist it hot. In every instance it was. Luckily?

 

Alan

   If I knew how to post pics I`d post one of mine so you can see how simple they are. (just like the guy who makes them) :D

  

Yes please, your device sounds intriguing.

 

I have seen some image posting instructions somewhere, I am sure they will show up if you do a search. Basically if you are doing a reply click on "More Reply Options" bottom right of the dialogue box, a couple of buttons appear so that you can find the image on your hard drive and upload it to the site and then attach it to your post.

 

Your device reminds me of a system I saw once which was a bit like the wall mounted arm and ruler they measure your height with for a medical. This was just a bit of round bar for a post welded on end on one corner of the brazing hearth. The arm was just another bit of bar welded onto a short sleeve or bush (as long as its internal diameter) which slid over the post and rattled up and down, there was enough spring in the post and lock in the short bush to keep pressure on the work piece, a bit like a light weight hold down dog.

 

Alan

Leave well alone looks in fine fettle! The legs do not look distorted around the eye to me at all.

 

They are designed like that....When the jaws are about a third open, 75mm (3") maybe, the faces are going to be parallel don't forget...having them parallel when they are closed is about the most useless, only good for gripping the thinnest sheet and everything larger would then be gripped by the bottom of the jaw!

I have seen a small clamping thing which is for soft soldering/ model making/ electronics which acts as third and fourth hands, it has  two crocodile clips on a pair of articulating arms with friction "elbows". I always fancied one. A beefier version could be useful for larger components, I found an industrial clamping ball joint (like on a photo tripod) which has a plate attached which I have used to offer up one piece to another, but did think if I had a pair of them they would be a great basis for third and fourth hands.

 

If you found two such things you could mount small vices or the fixed jaws of snap clamps on the ends of the arms and then you could hold non ferrous / nonmagnetic as well...

 

search for soldering clamp

 

I don't know whether you can get Hydrovane machines in the U.S. they were original a U.K. company, but I think they are now owned by some mega "Engulf and Devour" U.S. corporation (compair out of Gardner Denver inc). They seemed to have a better track record than some screw compressors but still had the same pulse free, relatively quiet, dry air, oil free qualities.

Anyway I went for an old refurbished one and have been very pleased with it. Probably only does a hundreds hours a year so it is hardly being stretched.

The forge is five miles from home so in my case it would not just be the neighbours...

Steve, I have used hard solder ( silver bearing 1250º Harris with their flux) to repair these. Use an acetelyne torch and a little bitty tip ( unless you have that kind of control on your tig).

For many years I made up my blades from bulk rolls of Starret like tenhammers. I ground a long scarf on each end, over 12 mm (half an inch long) with a 120 grit Ø100mm sanding disc clamped it in a little jig and soldered it with Johnson and Matthey Easy Flo silver solder and flux which sounds much the same as the Harris. The important thing was to ensure that as the blade travels around the wheels the leading scarf holds the trailing one against the wheel so that it does not spring open. I did not quench or anneal just reckoned there would be a slightly less hard part. I had none break on me (smug? me?) I have often had a bad batch of ready-mades break on the welds.

One other nicety was to align the offset of the teeth so that there were no half thickness bits.

Alan

I just went down to forge and found the jig still on the saw, haven't used it since I discovered m42 blades, twenty years?

True. I agree, and have advised lots of people similarly to get profiling or finishing done elsewhere. I have always been grateful that someone else is prepared to work in amongst zinc fumes to galvanise stuff on my behalf...

 

Ric's point about someone able to do a better job than you can do yourself is obviously a major factor.

 

The OP in this thread I thought had already made those decisions and was exploring the best way to do it in house.

 

It is always a problem trying to get all you want to say into a short response. In my case I was struggling squinting at my iPhone while waiting for the coffee to brew and when too-thick fingers lost the bit I had typed about the advantages of investing in equipment I did not bother to put it back. It picked up on what you said about your partner's underwear and suggested we might get brownie points if we invest in His and Her washing machines, before we invest in blasting kit!

 

Alan

I forgot one. The eye end makes an almost instant froe for a green woodworker. I made up two or three when the greenwood craze took off.

I agree with Bigfoot and Frosty, I would not alter it unless it is really irksome.

 

My main vice is not quite as pronounced a taper as that but I have always found it more of an asset than a liability. Most of the forged stuff I am holding is tapered so it holds fine.

 

Most of the vices that I have restored had a small amount of over strain distortion from some gorilla swinging on the tommy bar with a tube.

 

The quick fix is to use the same screw thread to un bend it....accomplished by removing the spring and putting a block between the legs and asking your friendly local gorilla to swing on the bit of tube. The block is ideally "D" shaped with the flat portion on the straight leg and the rounded on the bent one to isolate the pressure onto the bit you want to straighten. The block can of course be made from a number of pieces...

 

If you can't do it cold, heat the thinnest part of the moving front leg and twist it to align the jaws, using the screw and a spacing block in the tight side of the jaws, if there is wobble in the hinge you can strip it clean it and squeeze it tighter before you do any heating and/or bending.

 

Alan

Ah well have a look at some of the home builds on here I am sure something will catch your eye.

 

The main drawback to using such a press for hot working is they are too slow. Better for cold bending, pushing off bearings and etc.

 

You might check out second hand tool dealers if you want a forging capable press.

 

If you look at the thread about bowl making tools started by Kurgan, I posted a link there to a couple of videos of my bowl tools on my old 12 tonne Hi-Ton press..that cost me less than 300 sterling and is fast enough for hot work. I have punched and drifted Ø50mm holes through 50x50mm steel with it....

 

Alan

It's enough to make a 12 ton press. Sorry could not resist!

More to the point what do you want to press?

Much of my blasting work has been done by other companies but I have never found it that cut and dried.

Every project is different and whether it is in house or not is a decision taken at the time based on a range of factors. Unfortunately (for my bank balance) when I run the numbers the best result invariably trumps cheapest cost.

Most steel things I make are for an outdoor site and tend to zinc sprayed or galvanised. The galvanisers just galvanise, so any subsequent finish has to be done by me or others. The zinc sprayers do powder coat and wet paint and in the past have let me be in attendance to burnish graphite paint and armour bright lacqquered finishes, other times it is better/easier for me to do the wet painting and burnishing in house.

Some projects I have had shot blast at one place and shipped to a welding company for
assembly then back to the finishers to be re
Shot blast, zinc sprayed and painted.

The heaviest use I put the system to in house is when preparing for the TIG welds around punched hole joints. One advantage of doing it ourselves is that we can just do the area we need on both punched hole and through bar. Another advantage is that the forged surface detail and edges are are not damaged in the extra shipping and handling.

It all depends on many factors and having the option in house should not be excluded or dismissed out of hand.

...a hard bargain...I wish

I have just looked at my Hydrovane and it is 7.5kW so 10hp. 35CFM. It keeps up with the nozzle which was 1/4" but is now worn much larger! But as I said, this is using a pressure pot and not a suction gun system. Those are quite cheap now if you do not yet have one.

Thank you, Alan, for your quick and thoughtful reply.
I have often let the job buy the equipment, but a 20hp 80 CFM compressor, used, would run $6 - $10k, and take up valuable shop space. Though I'd have a great blast system!
My 5hp two-stage Saylor-Beall 80 gal is continuous-duty rated; how long do you think it would run a 1/4" nozzle before I'd have to wait for it to refill? I'm guessing not very long, if at all. I suppose I will try it when my pressure blaster arrives and see. I can always rent a big rig (by the day) if the S-B won't run the system well enough. Maybe that's the solution.

But, what I really want to know is what grade of Black Beauty to use, medium, fine, or extra-fine, to get the best mix of speed and surface texture for priming.

 

I will check on my set up later to give you the specs. Off the top of my head it is a 10hp (maybe 10 Kva) Hydrovane which I feed into the tank of my (now defunct  seized) two stage 5hp. 35 or 40CFM rings a bell. Actually has a similar/smaller footprint than the piston compressor and tank. Cost 1200 sterling reconditioned.

 

The pressure pot obviously trebles/quadruples the efficiency over a suction system, I will check the nozzle size and report.

 

Cannot advise on the Black Beauty brand slag, but if you get the most aggressive, the coarse or medium you can always reduce the pressure to make it less aggressive...Maybe one of your local colleagues will have a bit you could borrow to try?

I have just looked up Black Diamond media and see it is furnace slag...I found that it is much better economically to use chilled steel grit rather than expendable / semi-expendable media like slag or aluminium oxide on mild steel. The chilled steel was by far the most agressive and efficient in use and provided you can contain and collect it, it just goes round and round. Slag, Aluminium Oxide and Glass bead I only use on Stainless Steel or Non-ferrous metal.

 

Alan

hot cuts, punches, chisels, guillotine tools, nail headers, bolster plates, swages, shear blades, fullers, tongs, scrolling wrenches, twisting bars, axes,etc anything that needs to be tough and hard(ish)

 

Pretty well what he said!

 

The only things, apart from John's list, that I have used them for is punch plates (female dies) for sheet metal under the fly press, and amazingly as springs! One for a leg vice and one for the return spring on one of the iterations of my foot hammer.

 

Alan

When I sand blasted we used medium grade black beauty. Gets the work done fast. I also liked to stack all the railings, the overspray does a lot of the work for you. I couldn't stand wearing that space suit.

 

On jobs too big for my cabinet I have made up an envelope of clear plastic film with gaffer tape and left a small hole to poke my arms and the nozzle through. You can see and manipulate the work piece through the plastic, it keeps all the dust and grit contained so you can reclaim and recycle all the media and it is not sprayed around the yard...kind of like a photographic film loading black bag, but see through!

 

Alan

Man hours versus equipment cost, always a toss up.

 

I have to say I was so pleased with the purchase of a Hydrovane compressor which could keep up with the pressure pot shot blaster. The classic thing of a couple of minutes of full pressure blasting and then the 5 minute gradual taper off of efficiency as the 5hp piston compressor tried to keep up. Then the 3 minute wait for the tank to refill....

 

Just wonderful to press the button and blast until the job is done and then turn it off!

 

Huge asset psychologically...let alone practically/financially!

 

I always let the job buy the equipment, any chance you could buy second hand rather than hire....be even cheaper next time!

 

Alan

Yes, a pitch block of which there are various formulas usually involving a mix of pitch, plaster of paris, and beeswax. Pieh tool sells a German red pitch, which they tout.

 

 

Alan Knight the 'smith I worked with used a similar recipe but with tallow instead of the beeswax.

 

My memories of repoussé work on it are not the happiest.  Awful to use if it gets out of balance and the pitch gets too hard. Melts okay but in working it cracks up and you're breathing in pitch dust...gets everywhere! Pre ear defenders awareness/era so the row of the loosening sheet rattling, sore fingers.....the horror, the horror!

 

Alan

You may find a cross pein hammer more useful for forging, but in your circumstance, anything is better than nothing! I only used two 11/2lb ball pein hammers (just like my tutor did for all his eighteenth century style work) for my first four or five years. One hammer was flat and the other was full faced. In combination with the flat, the bick and the edge of the anvil you can get at most forms. The main specialist hammer was a long bodied narrow cross pein hammer for water leaf forming and crimping in a vee tool.

 

Good luck!

 

Alan

Not bragging...just aching!

My experience is with 316L grade and I have not found it any more susceptible to hot short/crumbling from over heating than ordinary mild steel. The problems I have encountered are at the other end of the working temperature range.

 

If you do work it too cold under a power hammer it can split, which I would describe as a cold shut.

 

I reckon you have to hit it at least twice as hard to move it as mild steel. Given the shorter working time per heat, because it is really springy and resilient at even red heat (risky if working a larger piece under the power hammer), you should allow almost four times the mild steel forging time...I usually forget when it comes to pricing!

 

Small stuff like bottle openers and spoons I heat with oxy acetylene torch right beside the anvil/hammer. I have a gas economiser on the bottle set / torch so it will automatically shut off the torch when I hang it up which saves vital seconds of prime forging time. 

 

Alan,

 

(who has aching wrists and forearms having this week forged two 3500mm (11'6") octagonal tapers from 2800mm (9') of Ø50mm (Ø2") 316L SS. 49mm to 35mmAF (2" to1 3/8" AF))

Certainly with coke you need more than just newspaper and air.

 

I used to use paper and split up some kindling, scoop out a nest in front of the back blast tue and as that burned and formed a heart introduce the coke gradually. I used to break up the kindling wood by holding it in the vice and using palm heel Karate blows, then splitting it further on the anvil hot set.

 

If I could light the fire with one match I reckoned I would likely have a good day, not for any superstitious reasons I hasten to add,  but because if I was concentrating enough to light the fire efficiently that degree of focus meant the work would go well!

 

After a decade or so of occasional cuts and bruises I started lighting the fire by turning on the air and playing the rose bud torch directly onto the coke...much faster!

 

Alan