nitewatchman

Rail in the US is still a simple steel, typically anything made since 1980 is basically .80% Carbon, 1.1% +/- Manganese and .24% Chrome. Newer rails made since 2000 can have .90% Carbon identified with the rolling mark HCP or HE and 1.00% Carbon identified with the rolling mark OCP or HEX. Both have .24% Chrome added to improve hardenablity. All rails identified with the rolling markes HH, HE, HCP, HEX or OCP are heat treated after rolling and the hardness varieds from 352 Bhn to 430 Bhn and has a pearlitic structure. The 1.00% Carbon rail are Hyper-Eutectic Steels and are difficult to force into Martensite and require a very rapid quench which may result in cracking. They are designed to transform into pearlite and avoid undesired martensite. Rails used in Canada are sometimes true low alloy rails with the Chrome content ranging up to .6%. Internationally there are several rails with a high Vanadium content and some with the addition of Boron to create a Bainite Structure. Rails made before 1960 can be almost anything including mild steel. Some rails made in the 20's and 30's were AISI 1035. nitewatchman

Be aware that the pile in the picture is not scrap but reclaim material. Material is gather like this when track is renewed or replaced and then forwarded to companies to be sorted and damaged material scrapped out. We operate a center like this in Newton Kansas that sorts several rail cars full per week (about 150tons). The material is graded and either delivered back to the RR for reuse or sold for relay material. Alot of this material looks new or would grade as new. This is like most things. If you ask, you will probably get more material than you can use. If you are caught tresspassing and taking material the penalities can be high. There are three guys doing jail time in Virginia for taking a length of rail that was placed to repair a road crossing. They had chained it to their truck and drove off. The railroad police simply followed the drag marks. Railway Police are also enpowered to operate across juristictions and state lines. And to answer your question the e-Clips are probably the best starting material since the carbon content is about .80% the same as common rail. nitewatchman

Frosty I have been out of contact for several weeks. I was in China for a couple of those weeks and the amount of new construction there is incredible. They are also having a Stimulus Program going on for 3 Trillion Yuan (1USD = 6.8 Yuan). The entire capacity of the Chinese Railway industry, which is about 3 times the North American industry is consumed on domestic High Speed Rail Projects. The startup time for the Stimulus Package from the time they decided to proceed to the time concrete started pouring was 4 months. We are now involved in almost the same thing in Brazil was heavy haul freight. In other countries money is actually being spent putting people to work and money in circulation, here it just seems to be disappearing.

Frosty, The Pandrol E-Clips are actually better than the Rail Anchors. The carbon content is much higher ranging up to .85% except forsome imported clips that can be lower. nitewatchman

Most Plates we make are A36 or AISC C1020. There are a few that are AISC C1040. Rail is close to AISC C1080. nitewatchman

THe clips are a High Carbon Steel, we have done chemicals, mechanicals and hardness at times. When the manufactures misses the temper on the clips they can have all sorts of problems. They are supposed to hold the rail base down with 2750#. If they are over tempered or burned due to the forging temperature being too high the spring rate is off and the load is low. The most interesting is when the hardness is too high. Some time after they have been installed ranging from an hour to a few days you may hear a "bong" and then a ring. The clip will have broken and flown about 25 feet in the air. This months project is cracking concrete railroad ties. Looks like the dent in the prestress wire is the wrong shape.

I have analyzed a lot of bad ones but haven't forged any. Like you said, they're on the list.

Alaska Railroad uses some but not many of the Pandrol Clips. I can send you a couple if you would like to play with them. The bar diameter in 20mm. They have a real nice ring when you drop them on the floor.

Those are Unit Rail Anchors. They are used to keep the rail from sliding in the plates due to expansion and contraction. They are basically a spring that clips on the rail base and bears against the tie. When new they are supposed to resist 2500# force trying to slide them. Some do some don't. The resistance usually falls off every time they are reinstalled. Watching someone try to put one on the first time is sometimes quite funny unless you are standing in the wrong place. While there are installation machines, many are applied with a hammer. Most people don't want to strike them hard enough and the anchor flys off the rail and you get to chase it into the weeds. If you are finding used ones beside the track they are usually sprung and too loose and will be picked up and moved to a lower density track. Railroads routinely pickup loose metal parts from beside the track with a magnet and dump them into cars. Part of our business is sorting the parts into reclaimed components and scrap.

I have had good results spot annealing the area where a hole is to be drilled on hardened metal. I do this by shaping the end of a carbon arc gouge rod to a flat point of the diameter I want to anneal. The metal is then polished so that the tempering temperature and spread can be judged by color. I then firmly ground the metal to a battery jumper cable clamp with a piece of copper between the clamp and part and place the carbon in the other clamp. Place the carbon firmly against the metal and have a helper attach the cables to a 12volt truck battery. The metal under the carbon point will rapidly heat likely turning red directly under the point. The helper can throttle the heat by removing the clamp from the battery to control the heat. Watch the color change areound the carbon. This can also be done without a helper if the carbon can be clamped against the metal but resist the urge to place the energized carbon against the metal. It will likely burn a chunk of the metal out. I have used this method to spot anneal hard rifle receivers so I could drill and tap for scope mounts.

My daytime job is working as Chief Engineer for a company that supplies track material to railroads. Depending upon the shape the squiggly, thing is likely a rail anchor (1045 to 1060) or if it is generally shaped like a lower case e, a Pandrol E2055 Clip (1070 or 1090). By the way - use caution in being on railway property. In some areas the FRA has started cracking down on "tresspassers" which is defined as being within 25 feet of the track centerline. They have issued warnings and personal fines of up to $10,000.

Steel does indeed have a grain structure where the grain may be thoght of as a crystal that either grew as the material solidified, refined as the metal changed phases (Austenite to Martensite for example) or refined due to being worked. Attached are two photos (5x and 40x)of 1080 steel that is mostly fine garined Pearlite with hardness of about Rc 40 and elongation of 12%. The white streak is Untempered Martensite with a hardness of Rc65 and elongation of 1%. The Martensite was formed when retained Austenite changed phase at room temperature rather than becoming Pearlite during quenching. The most likely cause of the quench failure is a chemical segragation in that area. We knew to look for the Untempered Martensite here because the part broke when stressed with the crack coming out of the Martensite. The black spot is a just a booger. The Untempered Martensite is characteized by the Asicular or needle like carbides in the white field. the Pearlite is recognized by the flat plates or lamela of Ferrite and Carbides. In this case we wanted all Pearlite since it wears better than Martensite at the same hardness and is tougher. This would not be suitable for a blade since it is much to soft.

Since this material is a ring gear it is most likely an AISI 8620 forging. This is a very tough steel commonly used in gears. It will appear to be very hard since the usual heat treatment is a case hardening with a quench. This results in a surface that is Rc 58 to 64 and .100" or less deep. The core is hardened to Rc 44 to 48 and due to the high nickle content is very tough and resistent to cracking due to stress risers. (Think gear tooth roots radii) The result is an extremely tough gear that can absorb high shock loads but due to the case hardening from carburization or nitriding is also very wear resistant. I suspect that what you saw crumbling was the high carbon case. We use this material to make high performance railroad joint bars. If it is in fact 8620, it likely will not harden to the extent that you want for a blade. The Q&T hardness range is Rc 40 to 50. Attached is a link to material properties. http://www.corusnz.com/downloads/CaseHard_AISI8620.pdf nitewatchman

Woody, You are correct in concerns with Nitric Acid, however Nital is the most common lab etchant used in metallurgy. It is commonly found in concentrations of 2% to 5%. It's ability to discern different phases of steel structure are very handy. Nital may also be purchased pre-prepared. Attached are photos of Untempered Martensite in a background of Pearlite or Tempered Martensite. The UTM is the white or silver material, it was either caused in a weld Heat Affected Zone, by trasformation during grinding or as retained Austenite. These are from rail which coincidentially is C1080-C1085. One huge problem we have is rails breaking during bending. In almost every case other than inadequate bending radii, the cause of the break is Untempered Martensite formed during grinding. A layer of UTM as thin as .002" is enough to initiate a crack. nitewatchman MSDS for Nital - http://www.reagents.com/pdf/MSDS/N-1030.pdf

The photographs of the break would indicate it started from a crack that occured during the quench or at least before the tempering operation. The dark color appears to be blue which would indicate that the surface was present during the tempering operation. If the surface was black or had the appearance of hot oxides or even scale this would indicate that the defect existed before the quenching operation. The whiteish color may indicate untempered Martensite which is a little less ductile that glass. A quick way to detect untempered Martensite is to etch with 2% Nitol or 2% Nitric Acid in Alcohol. Tempered Martensite or Pearlite etchs gray where untempered Martensite etchs white or silver. With experience the degree of temper can be judged by the shade of gray. A word of caution regarding Nitol. While the final solution is realitively harmless, concentrated Nitric Acid is not. Always add acid to alcohol never the other way round and always do this outside. If the mixture generates brown or orange fumes it is oxidizing the alcohol and producing dangerous gases. Leave it along and wait until it stops fuming. To dispose of the acid pour over crushed limestone and allow to react. gary

The starting material for SAE J429 Grade 8 Bolts is usually AISI C4140 or C4150 hence .40% or .45% Carbon. Grade 8 bolts are identified by 6 radial lines on the bolt head. Grade 5 Bolts usually start as AISI C1045 or .45% Carbon. Grade 5 bolts are identified by 3 radial lines on the head. There are exceptions, some ASTM A325 or SAE J429 Grade 5 bolts have been made of AISI C10B22. This material has only .22% Carbon but hardens due to the addition of .003% Boron. Heat Treating this material my prove difficult without accurate temperature control. nitewatchman

the blade is made out of a high carbon industral chipper blade that is 40inchs in length, --------the only thing that is almost harder then diamond is this sword Sounds like this steel has a very high FerroManurium content with a liberal addition of Unobtainium. gary

Fortunately I own my bottles and have exchanged them for the last 30 years but your gas prices are great! I paid $40USD for 2 "Q" Size bottles of Oxygen last Friday.

We could probably work something out for a short drop. The worst part would be the shipping cost. Want to continue this offline?

We know those as foundry hammers and they were designed, I think, to break up sand molds after the metal had cooled. The hammers were not swung but rather lifted and dropped. There are still a few around in the foundry corners left over from the old days when men were bigger. That job is now done by a shake out machine that rattles and vibrated the mold to break up the sand for reclaiming.

No, I don't believe so.

I am the Chief Engineer of the company and familar with the material you mentioned. Our parent company rolls this material in Austria. It is a rolled manganese rail that is used again to fabricate frogs. It is seldom rolled since the demand is small and minimum rolling are 500MT and it is incredibly expensive, as in the range of 10X to 15x more expensive than carbon steel rail. In railroads the frog is the device where the two rails cross in a railroad turnout which is commonly called a switch. Correctly the switch is the front part of the turnout. The most common origin of the term "frog" as used in the railroad is due to the similarity to the "frog" in the underside of a horses hoof.

This is area where I work. Manganese Steel is indeed used in railway frog castings but not in rail. My company is the largest producer of frogs in North America and we operate our own foundry to produce them. The casting is typically 12% Mn min. and the carbon is in the 1.2% to 1.4% range. The raw casting is 100% untempered Martensite and is so brittle that it will shatter if dropped. After heating the raw casting to 2000F it is water quenched as quickly as possible (1 minute maximum between removal from the furnace and quench). This creates a material that is 100% Austenite at room material and is similar in structure to Stainless Steel. This steel is not hardenable by heat treatment and is hardened strictly using cold work. We initially harden the material by using a shaped charge of C4 High Explosive. This is glued to the surface of the casting and exploded noticeably compressing the surface of the part. Unfortunately, we have never found and effective way to saw the material after it is hardened. Diamond wheels initially will cut but quickly glaze over. The work hardening seems to generate a twinned or slip plane structure and at times transforms from Austenite that is room temperature stable to Untempered Martensite. The real star of railroad materials right now are the advanced rail steels. The common rail used and marked HH is 0.8% C and .26% Cr. The next step up is the rail marked HE or HCP and it is 0.9% C and .26% CR. The King is curently rail marked HEX or OCP and it is 1.0% C and .26% Cr. Small drops are available. To have a steel that could produce a sword that could slice stone would require a high percentage of Ferromanurium which would likely make it cost prohibitive.

Thanks! That is what I wanted to hear.

I would like to forge weld high carbon steel to nickel sheet to obtain damascus pattern lines. I have a supply of thin metallugically pure nickel sheet but have never attempt this. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated nitewatchman