Dave Hammer

If you have the height in your shop to set up the line shaft, I'd do it that way. It will give you flexibility for adding machinery driven by it in the future (only needing one motor to drive multiple machines). Powering your machines from above will aslo save you floor space and give you more manuvering room around your machines. It would be a little more work on the front end, but will pay big dividends in the future. Exciting times ahead... Good luck.

I haven't had time to work on the 3B since I last posted. Yard work and preparation for the incoming hurricane (in addition to watching a little football) has pretty much tied me up. Also a two day trip to Blacksburg (Thr-Fri) to spend a bit of time with my son and his family. The storm is supposed to come in tonight. Mucho rain and wind coming (at least that's what the forecasters are saying. I think they are saying SNOW in the mountains west of here. Time will tell, I guess. I closed in the half of the outdoor smithy (normally, it's just a canopy) that contains the 3B. I need to put some lights in there (I have electricity and lights in the original canopy, just haven't gotten to the lights in the 3B addition yet). I have more painting to do also. I love the unpainted barnwood look, but not all the construction materials were old, so I couldn't leave it all unpainted. That is a 150# Bradley Upright Compact under the original canopy... I love that hammer. I think it's one of the best mechanicals of all time. I wish I had installed it in the indoor shop. Gotta go work on a little generator.... The last storm left us without electricity for four days. This storm is forecast to be a lot worse.

I just have to smile.... I made some modifications to the muffler cone today (widened the top a bit and made the hole in the bottom smaller). Before I put it back in the 3B, I put the plate with the holes in so I could videotape how it ran before... .. It ran different than it did before I started making changes. OOPs... can't go back all the way to "before" I made ANY changes, because I also changed the leather seals. So when I put the plate back in, I was running with those new seals. Unfortunately, they are leaking more air than before I changed them (they didn't leak more initially, but they must have settled in more). Remember.... I changed them because I was getting a brown gunk on the ram..... Well.... I'm not getting that any more, but the seals are leaking more air (I can hear it...and that must be why the hammer is running different still).. I knew I might have to replace the leather seals again. The leather I used this time is good leather, but I WAS a little concerned about the thickness. It seemed like it was enough, but it was close (it was just under 1/4th inch). Guess it was not thick enough..... Like I said, it must have settled in. I ordered some 17/64ths from McMaster Carr a few minutes ago. It should be here Friday. I'll get the "new" "new" seals in Monday at the latest (possibly this weekend, but probably not. I might have been able to put some spacer behind the leather, but this way I know I won't have to drop the ram guide AGAIN. Smile.... Smile.... Smile.... A hydraulic hose burst on my tractor today also, and I stripped some threads taking it off... URRRRGGGGGGGG.... Smile... Other GOOD things happened today though..... All around, a great day.

I haven't changed the oil...., I just keep adding new with the Manzel pump. I currently use 30wt non-detergent for everything. Some folks in industrial plants use commercial cylinder oil for the ram and compressor cylinders.... and use 30wt non-detergent for the bearings. They use a pump for the cylinder oil... and drip bottles for the bearings. I assembled my 3B only about two years ago (with the exception of the valves, it was completely disassembled ) and I have to admit.... it doesn't get used as much as it would in a production shop, so I don't think my oil has any issues yet. My goal is to feed enough oil to the main bearings so that the little reservior in the bearing housing (under the actual bearing) stays full, or is actually running over as I pump those few drops a minute in (so the ring that feeds oil up to the top of the bearing is always in a full bath of oil). The area (in the hammer frame) under the bearings is also a reservior that you need to monitor and empty occasionally. If I recall, there is a plug for draining it. What type of oil is used in the hammers you have access to?

R. Smith..... That definitely is useful information for me. You've confirmed I need to widen the top of my cone a bit. I have more than the 1/4 to 5/16ths clearance around the top of the cone. I think that area is the most significant to have true to factory specs. Also, what you have described tells me I should try narrowing the opening of the top of the tower a little. I can modify what I currently have toward your measurements easily.. The 2B cone I did get a look at had a larger hole in the bottom of the cone, so I matched it. I will reduce the size of that opening more toward what you describe. What you describe does seem more like an oil release than a significant air management port . Thanks...

I would appreciate that more than you could know. This is what I would need. 1. The inside diameter of the top of the tower. 2. The inside diameter of the bottom of the tower (I believe it is a straight pipe from the bottom until after the top of the cone. 3. The outside diameter of the bottom of the cone. 4. The outside diameter of the top of the cone. 5. The height of the cone. 6. The size of the hole in the bottom of the cone (if there is one) If you're not able to get them...(R. Smith)..... Is there anyone else out there with a 3B willing to take their muffler off and take the measurements for me.... Thanks in advance... I shot a little more video today, but decided not to upload it to YouTube. I am going to put the plate back in and take video of how it behaved before the cone I made. I have video now showing the "initial cone dimensions" impact on the stroke. I am going to widen the top of the cone a bit and see what happens (and videotape it). When I am finished monkeying around with it, I will produce a video showing the "start to finish" changes and results. I think this will be more instructional than putting interim results on YouTube. I expect to get the video up before the end of this week. Like I posted before, I can get short strokes now, but not as I expected (I have to go to clamp, then back off to get the low short strokes). I do have short strokes for the entire stroke range doing it that way, but again, it isn't the normal treadle action.

Thanks John.... I didn't take time to work with the 3B today. Church and yard work took all my time. I went and got 4 loads (24 yards) of mulch. Unloading and spreading it about did us in (my wife and I). That covered about half of our mulch needs. We had to pick up acorns first. Some had started to sprout. We're going to need a new plan in about 10 years. Don't know how long we will have the energy to keep this yard up like we like it. I should be able to finish the yard work this week (that is... all that needs to be done before the bulk of the leaves fall (Caryol will be off to spend time with grandkids). When the leaves fall, it's another two or three days of work. I'm also working on a paper describing how to line a forge with a reflective (ceramic-like) surface over thermal blanket (similiar to some glass blowers glory holes). I talked about it a little at a demo I gave last weekend and promised I would send out a paper within a week or so. I'm not too far behind that committment, but it will be a few more days.

I thought about doing it that way Sam, but decided it would take about the same amount of time in the end. I knew I could get good results the way I did it. I know that cone is there in the 1B, 2B, 3B and 4B. I don't know for sure, but I would expect it to be there in all the Nazel hammers. Incidently, I won't be modifying the pulley diameter on the 3B motor. I was computing the current BPM of the 3B using the outside diameter of the pulley and flywheel ( that's how I determined it was running at 192 BPM). A friend reminded me that I should have been using the pulley "pitch" position instead. A new calculation, using an estimate of where the "pitch" positions are.... is telling me that I am only 2.2% faster than the factory specification. If that is true, I can't believe that little variance would cause the issue I'm chasing.

Sorry I haven't reported any results yet, it's been a busy week. I ran the 3B with the new cone for just a couple minutes after I finished it. It definitely changed the performance. The ram started down with shorter strokes. I had short strokes to (maybe) a third or more of the way down. I had to press the treadle more to coax it down further..., then the strokes lengthened again. By the time I had the ram going down all the way to the bottom die, the strokes were fairly long. Not full strokes, but almost full strokes. So, I made progress with the short strokes issue, but still had work to do. It was better, but not what I am driving for. Keep in mind that the cone I made is fashioned from measurements taken from a 2B, and my tower (not original either) has a different inside diameter. My plan was to make the top of the cone a diameter that would allow about the same amount of air as the 2B, and tweak from that point (changing the diameter, allowing more or less air through). I still believe that the back pressure there plays a significant role in the air management. I took the tower and cone off. At that point I decided to drop the ram guide and replace the leather seals. There was definitely an issue there (with the seals) and I wanted to fix that before I started tweeking the cone. I believe the seals were reacting badly with the oil and putting a deposit on the ram (I was getting brown gunk on the ram) . In any case, I didn't know if the seal issue was a player in the "no short stroke" issue, but I wanted to fix that problem before I started changing the cone. To shorten this story, I'l just say I took a couple days to get the seals changed (much longer story there). I finally got the ram guide back on last night just before dusk. Saturday (today) is a family activity day for us, so I didn't get to the hammer till about 5 PM. I installed the cone and tower and powered it up. It seemed better than before (short strokes further down, but not all the way to the lower die). SHUCKS..... HMMMM..... I'm going to see if it will clamp.... It did... and when I started to raise the ram back up.... guess what..... short controllable soft strokes... just in a different position on the pawl than I expected to find them. I shot some video, then it got dark.... More testing tomorrow.... and playing with the pawl and stop positions on the valve timing cam... This is exciting! I know I can get those short strokes now. Next is to get them where they are supposed to be on the controls (or change the controls).

This week I made a muffler cone for my Nazel 3B. Sometime in the past, it had been replaced with a flat steel disk with holes drilled in it. Most likely, the cone was broken during hammer maintenance or repair. In any case, this is one of three things I am fixing or changing to see if I can get the short light stokes the literature says I should have down near the lower die. I have already changed the leather seals in the lower ram guide. Later I will have the motor pulley turned down to get the BPM down to the 180 factory spec (it's running at 192 now).

Larry.... I'm glad you found something that is likely the cause of your issues. Let us know when you have confirmed it. My next efforts (beyond further study of the documentation I have) will be 1. Replace the muffler with something that works like orginal equipment. 2. Replace the leather seals on the ram guide. 3. Reduce the size of the pulley on the motor to get down to 180 BPM.

John N. Both Larry and I have diagrams in a commercially available phamplet that Mark Krouse created and sells. It has copywrite protection, so we shouldn't post pictures of the diagrams. The pamphlet can be purchased from Bob Bergman (Postville Blacksmiths).

Larry... Yes, I am having short stroke problems also. I’m sorry I haven’t made that obvious. I have great control with my 3B (I believe I could crack an egg without breaking it), but has been with long heavy strokes. As I posted yesterday, I made some progress by making the hole in the top of my tower smaller (my full strokes are now about ¾ strokes). That’s why I said I believe the back pressure on the exhaust is significant (it would literally be pushing air down through the cushion bushing and help keep the ram lower). That is why I’m looking for a factory cone and tower. If I can’t find a factory cone and tower, I need the measurements I asked for so I can fabricate something that is functionally equivalent. It's also why I want to get the hammer moved to the 180 BPM (factory spec). When I got my hammer running, a couple years ago, I noticed, via youtube, that some hammers had that short stroke (there is not much nazel video out there though). I made some inquires, but didn't get answers that supported it being a feature, so I thought it might just be a problem from wear. Evidently, I didn't ask the questions effectively. Anyway... When you posted a few weeks ago... my interest was renewed. I have to believe we can solve the problems we have. The answer may be different for each hammer though. I’ve been studying Mark’s information also. I’m getting close to understanding most of it (still some areas I'm working to get my head around). I can see that the short strokes should be possible…. On full treadle down, all the air compressed by the piston (as well as the suction on the lower end is used to push/suck the ram down. The opposite is true when the ram is raised. That is… all the air compressed below the piston and vacuum created on the top end (input from the ram cylinder and tower) is used to move the ram up. Those actions would produce full power (with full stroke). When the treadle is just part way down, and the piston is on the rise, only part of of the compressed air is used to move the ram down. Some of the air is (as noted by John N. above) sent to the exhaust tower (air is divided between power and exhaust). Mark's (treadle half down) diagram illustrates this. If the use of the air is carefully balanced, with a slight favor to the down side (after consideration of the ram weight), the ram could move down a little at a time while taking short strokes. The amount of air given to push the ram down would determine the length of the stroke. Any excessive air leakage would definitely cause problems and is most likely the problem if everything is factory equipment and all is present, and the leakage could be from more than one source (damaged valves, seals and rings). It should be easy to validate that the valves sleeves haven’t slipped (I checked my visually and have 100% belief they are in the correct positions). It should also be easy to check the clearances of the valves (measurements). Other leakage would be around the piston and ram in various places, which are not so easy to check. Clearances can be checked, but effectiveness of rings and seals are more troublesome to determine. I think.... even the oil viscosity could have impact on operation. We'll find it...

Larry.... I'm tending to agree with you. The source of the missing or errant air is what's in question. I wanted to try slowing my hammer down to see if it would help because, after John posted his comment (and I planned to take the BPM down as low as 150 BPM), I remembered my hammer is running faster than the factory 180 BPM. Not much, only at 192 BPM, but maybe enough to cause issues for this feature. I gingerly drove my bobcat over part of my lawn today to move the generator. I wired the 3B motor to it and did the experiment I spoke of earlier. Results were not conclusive. I couldn't slow the motor down as much as I had hoped to. The cycle gauge only went down to 55 (I didn't want to peg it downward). If things worked as I had expected, slowing down the motor till the cycles gauge read 56 should have reduced the speed of the hammer to the factory 180 BPM. The hammer did seem to have slowed down, but when I tried to count the cycles using a stop watch, it was difficult to confirm it. In any case, the hammer still did not perform better with regards to the short, light blows. Keep in mind that.... earlier, when I had put a restriction on the top of the muffler (closer to what I believe the top opening of the muffler tower should be), it did work better, but still not the way I expect it should (based upon Larry's and others experience. Larry.... Do you have Mark Krause's Operating Principles handbook? I wish it were more detailed, but it does have air flow diagrams at idle, half treadle down, full treadle down and clamp. The "treadle half way down" diagram was why I thought the bypass spring might be involved. I will still continue to look for an original cone and muffler tower, or fabricate them with as close to original tolerances as I can. I am totally convinced those tolerances play a significant part in the air management. My hammer is belt driven with a custom steel pulley. I believe I can have the pulley turned down (it's solid) more to get the hammer running at 180 BPM. I'm not sure, at all, it will help with the light blow issue.

Looks like the original tire hammer.

John..... Thanks for the "changing the speed" nudge... I had thought about doing that, but didn't put it on my list. I don't have a VFD, but.... for an experiment, I can hook the hammer up to an old military generator I have and slow the motor down. I know I have read somewhere (can't put my hands on the source document right now) that the speed (BPM) on these hammers can be varied by 25%. If I understand the electrical aspects correctly, I should be able to take the speed of the generator down till it is running at 50 cycles (as opposed to 60 cycles). The hammer motor, although it doesn't have a 50HZ rating on it, should be able to run at that HZ for a while without causing problems (any other opinion out there?). I think the generator motor rpm is proportionate to the cycles generated. If I've done the math correctly, I should be able to drop the hammer BPM to 150 (from 180), assuming the speed of the motor will drop with the lower HZ source.

I was posting information about this problem on both IFI and the Northwest Blacksmiths forum (http://blacksmith.org/forums/forum.php), The other forum has additional information (similar topic heading). Sorry for any confusion. I don't think you need to be a member of the other forum to read the threads.

Any regulator that is adjustable up to 30 lbs should work fine. You can buy a "Mr Heater" brand regulator (0-60 lb) for about $22 (last I checked) at Tractor Supply Co (TSC). They don't come with a gauge.

What is each environment good for? How do you achieve it? What do they look like? When do you "NOT" want each environment?

Update.... I wired a temporary switch for my 3B and played with it. I didn't get the same results as with the 1B, so I guess it's back to the drawing board. I still think that too much air may be getting into the lower end though. Gotta study that valving and air flow some more.

Larry I just did a little experiment on my 1B. I put pressure (pushed up) on the valve stem (bypass valve) while I was pressing down a bit on the treadle. This would simulate having a stronger spring.... It moved the stroke down further, and seemed to shorten it. Give this a try. I can't try it on my larger hammer (3B) this morning because I burned up the coil on my magnetic starter a couple days ago and haven't replaced it yet....

Larry.... Does your Nazel have the original muffler and muffler cone? If not, and the current parts restrict the air movement differently than the original parts, it would affect the behavior of the ram. I don't know if it would fix your problem, but if your current setup is not original, you might try making a change to allow a litlle more air to be moved through the muffler. I do know, for sure, that if the air restriction is increased, the result is that the ram moves up more aggressively, so it makes sense to me that decreasing the air restriction through the muffler will produce the opposite effect. If you try something like this, please post the results.

This is an observation, not an attack. From post 1..... "in every single place I have worked it has been the simplest of matters to sort the trained from the self-taught - think about it - that means something. The only way to maintain standards within the trade (WHETHER IT BE BLACKSMITHING, FABRICATION, WELDING OR THE minor metal trades) is for basic competence to be established through the awarding trade bodies." From post 12....... "suppose also that I have a little bit of a jaundiced eye having just lost out on a pretty lucrative railing and gate job to a mob I know to be no more than tackers and welders' mates." Actually, I get a little chuckle when someone preaches that the only qualified folks are those that have formal training papers. I never deride education, but experience and results are what reigns in the end. I think that the extracts from posts 1 and 12 provide an insight into bigred. I have seen some AMAZING work, done by both centified (whatever that means) and un-certified blacksmiths. If you look for poor work, you can certainly find it from both classifications also.

A good running hammer is a thing of joy!

For anyone that may be interested, I made another video, using a 25# LIttle Giant. It can be viewed at www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2iEvXvQ9Gs&feature=channel&list=UL