Ed Thomas

I've done a bit of striking and had folks strike for me. The only signals we use are two taps from the smith before the first blow means follow with a strike, and when done the smith lays the hammer on the anvil as the striker completes his last blow. I have had no problem striking for strangers up and down the east coast with just these simple codes. We use treadle and power hammers for everything else. Since the original question didn't ask about striking, I wasn't going to get into this, but I like what Strine said. The "I quit" signal is just about unmistakable and crosses all sorts of language barriers. 8)

One more thing: A hammer drift doesn't have to be perfect in its taper, by the way. Just reasonable. The point of a hammer drift is to act as the inner anvil when forging a hammer head. You drive the drift into the head blank, and then do some additional forging with the drift still in the head. So at least part of the drift is shaped like the hole you want in cross section (oval, usually), but is not tapered one way or the other. Then after that section, the drift is usually tapered rapidly back down enough to be able to drive the drift on out. So like the anvil, you use different sections of the drift for different tasks in making the hammer head. Really... just try it. It doesn't take long for it to all makes sense. And if you run into difficulty, carefully note all that stopped you and the conditions you face... take two aspirins, and call us in the morning. :?

Richard: There have already been a few posts about hammers and handles. Check back a few topics and read away. Forging from the thick to the thin part of a taper has several advantages: 1) The heat stays in the bar longer as you work it because the surface area remains reduced for longer, so you can get more work done in one heat. 2) It is significantly easier to heat the remainder of a piece evenly without burning the tip if you do the tip last. 3) You can see the results of forging the taper as you work because it is on your side of the hammer, which I think gives you a smoother taper more quickly. Of course it has a price, and that is that you MUST think. You can't willy nilly whack away at it until it's pointy at one end. The reason people want to point it first and back up from the point is because you can home in on the angle of the taper as you go. If you start back from the end of the bar as I describe, you have to know pretty closely HOW far to back up the start of the taper. But try a few practice pieces and you'll be able to judge pretty closely.

Ben: I had a student once who put an ad in the local penny-saver that he was looking for an anvil. He had his pick of 4... and he and his dad decided to buy them all. Usually those ads are free, or pretty cheap. Make sure you word it so that it is obvious you want it to use and aren't just a collector. Sometimes that helps. I think I mentioned before that I worked for a week with a guy up on MN on an anvil he got for $4. It had a horn but the back end was all broken off. Only about 1/2 the plate was still there, so we had a working surface of about 4" x 4". We had fun and never really needed more than that. I'd say an anvil like that is actually better (and a better deal) than some of the cheesy imports. Avoid the junky new ones at all cost, such as those offered in Harbor Freight and Grizzly, and even in some hardware stores. They are cast iron, which makes a miserable anvil. Did you have any luck finding a blacksmith group near you yet?

Whenever you can, it is a good idea to reforge stock anyway. It removes the mill scale, dimensions things they way you want, and leaves the metal with a much warmer texture. There are still a few issues: When you forge, of course the steel doesn't all move in cross section. Depending on your hammer control, it could move just as much lengthwise. So you need to take some pieces and see what happens as you learn to reforge it. It is not cheaper to reforge in volume. A smith only does that to own the metal. The time and fuel will cost you more than getting the right dimension. There really isn't much need for a square swage, which is why they are so rare. The reason for this is that the most effective way to draw down material is in rectangular cross-section anyway. So all you have to do is learn to forge consistently. Cut some different thickness of notches in a piece of metal. Use that as a quick gage as you forge along. The best way to make round swages is to drive the size stock into the hot dies. If it is a spring swage, make up the blank, heat it, and hammer it over the round stock. This provides a much softer, more radiused die that won't chew up your piece as easily as a drilled hole. Details upon request.

Hollis: That reminds me of a friend that riveted a carpenter's square to his forge for much the same reason. It looked pretty handy.

elkdoc: It's your anvil. (I presume) So you do whatever you want to it, as long as you are using it and making things. The anvil is just a tool. Any absent minded tapping you do will hardly be enough to mark or damage a decent anvil. Just always think relaxed and fluid and comfortable when you work at an anvil with your hammer. If that involves some occasional hammer bobbing, knock yourself out. Other people may have an issue with that on their anvils. Don't bother using their anvils.

Richard: Permit me a bit of skepticism -- if you are having trouble making drifts, a hammer might be a bit of a challenge for you. You don't need a $65 hammer! You don't even NEED a $20 hammer. So if you have anything at all (you must if you are trying to forge a taper in something), use it and take your time making a taper. A tomahawk drift is different than a hammer drift, because it teardrop shaped, if I recall correctly. I made a pair for someone quite awhile back and they seemed to do the trick, though I don't have any use for tomahawks myself. To make an even taper, decide on the size of your starting end, and the size of your finished end. Forge from the finished end (the widest part) to the starting end. Check it on the anvil as you go for an even taper. It is actually very easy and will be routine to you in no time.

George Dixon showed how to make a cutting plate for the hardie hole and the treadle hammer in Artist-Blacksmith Quarterly that works quite well. It solves two of my big aggravations with cutting plates -- Staying firmly in place, and easily replaceably cutting surface. I read the article, and thought I had it down pat. When I built it in the shop, I was too lazy to go get the article and found I'd made it slightly differently... but I think equally effective. What I did was take three pieces of 1" stock 5" long. I clamped them together with a business card as spacers, and welded the two outside one to a plate. The middle one then easily slides in and out. I drilled and tapped a set screw in the side of one of the fixed bars, which holds the middle one in place. Put a hardie shank in the middle of the underside of the plate. You cut over the middle (removeable) 1" bar. When it gets all cut up, you loosen the set screw, rotate it 90

Rantalin: Thank you for sharing your work with us.

Hollis: Now you know why I hardly ever go over to anvilfire. :shock: I have NEVER had a problem with my hardie tools sticking in the direction they have been forged to fit the anvil. Here is one of the compromises. VERY seldom is a hardy hole perfectly square. You can try to clean it out until it is as close as you can get, but a tool made to fit cleanly in one direction still may not fit when turned 90

John: My shop is almost functional. The larger hammer is in place but not operational. The smaller hammer is operational but not in place. About 1/2 my machinery is in; the forge is up, and I'm starting to get it organized. Right now I'm a bit OOC from flareup of a pinched nerve in my back... same as I was suffering from at BGOP Spring Fling. There are no windows or doors in, but it ain't cold yet neither. :mrgreen: I only have 60A available for now, so have to be careful that nothing much is on when welding or hammering. Most of my motors are 5hp or less, so it's not a big inconvenience. We had the annual SVBG picnic inside the shop... and everybody fit comfortably. Amazing. I must not have enough toys in the way yet.

Rick Barter: I'm a bit out of commission right for a few days so I'm reduced to watching videos and reading about blacksmithing rather than doing any. I just got done watching a segment of Frank Turley discussing scrolls while he shaped one, which will become a jig for further scrolls. I got this DVD at the last ABANA conference, I THINK it was at the UMBA booth. At any rate, you can go here: http://www.umbaonline.org/ And click on "Library" about the middle of the page. The cost is only $7 for the first DVD and $5 for each one after that. This is an awesome deal. Each DVD is between 5 and 6 hours of demos and covers a very large range of skills. It isn't quite as good as being there, but you can watch the segment over and over till you figure out what you want to know. The DVD I found Frank Turley on wasRD-4. He is the last of 5 tracks. Back to the scrolls... Frank probably took 10 heats or more to make the scroll. Some of that was due to talking and demonstrating, but it didn't look like he could have cut more than a few heats from that anyway.

Original Post yesteryearforge PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 02:43 pm Wanted hot cut hardy or hardies with 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inch square shanks --------------------- Ed Thomas PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 04:54 pm Yesteryear: They don't take too long to make, especially if you have a power hammer. Will you be needing other hardie tools for these anvils also? It might be worth the time to make them yourself. That 1.5" hole is pretty big. For a 400# anvil or so? One reason I prefer to make my own hardy tools is that I can make them exactly as I want, not as someone else thinks I want. The other, and better, reason is that the hardy shank can be made to fit your anvil better than a generic size. ------------------ Glenn PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 06:39 pm See if you can find some 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" sq tubing, and some 1/4 x 4" flatbar (think leaf spring, or cut pieces from 1/4" plate). Precut the flatbar to 4x4 and the tubing to hardie post length. You now have stock for making a BUNCH of anvil tools. If you have a forge and a welder, a custom made anvil tool is rather easy to make. -------------------------------------------------- Ed Thomas PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 07:21 pm Glen, I've made hardie tools that way, and REALLY don't like them. Sort of like trying to hit with a hollow hammer or something. I'm sure I have over a dozen hardy tools all forged more or less the same way. Everything else just disappeared as inadequate over time. Just like you wouldn't ordinarily make a hollow-handled chisel, I think the mass of the hardie tool is important. I have the benefit of a power hammer normally, but as I've said before, a demo of making a hardie only took about 1.5 hrs, and that was stopping to show lots of things, draw things, answer questions and so on. It probably only takes me about 30 minutes to make a hardy without so much help. And then I have a life-time tool that is custom fitted to that anvil and behaves like an integral part of the anvil, rather than like a wheel with all the lug nuts loose. -------------------------------- Ed Thomas PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 07:25 pm oops. Embarassed By "the same way", I meant solid forged from tool steel, usually a truck axle. ---------------------------------- HWooldridge PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 08:36 pm The weight of a solid tool vs a hollow stem is noticeable but not always objectionable. In addition, if you need to put a tool in for a while - i.e., something you may use repeatedly to make 50 of something before changing to another bottom tool, you can weld a nut into the shank and bolt it to the anvil from the bottom. Makes a really solid combination of anvil and tool. I also saw one smith put a little hook on the bottom of each tool and use a spring hooked to the anvil block to keep it firmly in the hardy. Lots of ways to skin a cat. Very Happy ----------------------------------- T-Gold PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 08:40 pm I like that spring idea. I have seen some tools with a slot cut/punched in the shank and a wedge in it to hold it against the heel. I think I may do the spring. ------------------------------------ Glenn PostPosted: 14 Jul 2005 10:06 pm CAUTION Do not use the face if the anvil with an anvil tool in the hardie hole. If you hit the anvil tool with your knuckles, hand, arm, etc while holding the hammer, you can be injured. If the hot cut cuts steel it can also cut a finger. I should explain that the 4x4 plate and piece of 1-1/2" sq tubing was the bottom part of the anvil tool. The top part could be anything you desire. I have used both solid and hollow hardie posts as well as those that can be secured with nuts, springs, levers, and wedges. Those locked to the anvil don't wiggle, as opposed to those loose in the hole and resting on the anvil. But once the hammer hits, the plate is against the anvil either way. The top part of the anvil tool (the working part) has always been solid. Ed, Hollis, etc, is there a mechanical or impact advantage between locking an anvil tool into the hardie hole and having it loose in the anvil face with a well fitting hardie post when it comes to use? Loose will twist a bit, I understand that, but I am asking about preformance of the tool and the possible stress on the anvil. -------------------------------------------------- Daryl PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 12:55 am As for making an absolutely wicked cut-off hardie, here's what you do. I see you live in Virginia, go find an agricultural implement dealer, particularly one that sells and repairs forage harvesters. The shaft for the pto on some models is made of 1.25" x 1.5" material, some models have even larger than that. You can tell the extra hard ones as they have evidence of ceramic powder applied to the edges for about 1/4". I have never taken the time to find out what it actually is, except that it only needs a light hardening (after cooling slightly below the transformation temperature) and a light temper (straw to yellow/brown). Trying to cut it with a bandsaw (and good blades) is impossible without fully annealing it. Forging is done in a narrow temperature range (from yellow - not lemon to orange/yellow) and it is tough to move. Sad Another material to use would be the pinion gear from an Eaton differential from a highway truck. Clean up the material by cutting off some of the excess with a torch before forging. If either of these materials can handle 500+ horsepower, it should be good enough for us smithies. Very Happy As for the anvil.... hey guys, myself and many others 'up here' point our anvil such that the hardie hole is on the opposite side of our striking hand. While this may seem backwards, remember most anvils of the south German pattern have the hardie hole on the left, with the pre-anvil on the far side of the face. I can cut something off with my cut-off hardie and move to the center of the face and never worry about slicing my knuckles on the hardie. While it was the way I was taught and I am used to it, it does make sense to me. Smile Wink ---------------------------- yesteryearforge PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 04:10 pm Have made them before and might make these but was hoping to get lucky / it happens from time to time These are for a 400 lb and a 600 lb anvil Have smaller hardies but dont like to use sleeves and such. ----------------------------- Ed Thomas PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 05:41 pm yesteryearforge: Sorry for jumping on a soapbox when all you asked for was if somebody had something for sale. Embarassed I really don't like when people do that to me, and I regret doing that to you. I hope you don't mind that I took the discussion on making tools back to the blacksmithing forum instead. I never had any luck finding reasonably priced hardie tools for that sized hole. I hope that you do. ----------------------------- Edit, I have copied the discussion from the tailgating section and placed it in front of Ed's post for continunity. [This is a continuation of the discussion in the tailgating section by yesteryearforge.] Ed's post starts below Ed Thomas PostPosted: 15 Jul 2005 05:39 pm To be honest, I've never used a locked-in hardie tool so I can't say one way or the other. I know that when I make a hardie tool, it doesn't hop around enough for me to wish I could make it sit still better, so it was never an issue. The other thing is that a clamped or locked hardie tool might be stiffer or better, but then you have to fool with it more. I can come out of the fire with hot metal and in one motion pick up and settle a hardie tool in place with no appreciable loss of time. As I'm done, or as I need a different tool, the hardie tool comes right out and slips right back on its rack spot. One thing that occurs to me though.... Almost all my work is done on either a 500# Fisher or a 260# German pattern anvil. So the hardie hole is really deep and supported compared to the typical London pattern 100 - 150 pound anvil, where the hardie hole is hanging out the end like a trash chute on an aircraft carrier. That means when I make the hardie tools, the walls of the anvil are supporting the shank quite deeply. Like the difference between holding a bolt in your fist or between two fingers.

Elkdoc: Can you post the details here? I don't think it would offend anyone, and I have several friends that are interested.

When you bend iron, two factors affect how the bar wants to move. 1) The shape of the iron across the areas being bent 2) The temperature of the iron across the areas being bent. To reduce the impact of temperature, it is common to try to heat it evenly. One way to look at cold bending is to think of it as the most uniform heat... just rather low. Once you get past the most simple cross-sections and shapes, you will start looking at ways to use the heat to compensate for the shape anyway. So trying to get a uniform heat is good, but not essential for bending. As long as the iron is in a malleable range, your bending tools and anvil techniques matter much more. One caution I would make is to pay attention to what happens as you bend and shape the iron. The more you peck at it, the more harried and overworked it will begin to look. What you are aiming for is to forge it to the shape you want, and then bend it to the shape you want. All deliberately. That takes some practice, but is worth it. In other words, pay very close attention while you are doing this and note what really happens. Try things. Don't just fool with it until it is pretty close to what you want and then be relieved. Try to figure out what happened, and immediately do it again and again so you know you can MAKE it behave, not just HOPE it will behave.

In this case, I don't think the hitch balls are a big mystery. If they are old, they are almost certainly mild steel. The only unknown, in my opinion, is if there is enough carbon to harden at all. You can also spark test the ball to see if there is a lot of carbon or not. Use things you know as a comparison. Take a piece of mild steel and compare that and a piece of spring steel and so on. I tend to do the most abusive quench test first, especially if I have plenty of spare. This usually saves some time. This is just for shop tools, not high end knives and such.

I think the best thing to do is: 1) Go buy or borrow 3 good How-To Blacksmithing books. http://www.blacksmithforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=200 The better books lay out the essential equipment, why you need it, and what it looks like, complete with pictures. Then they show you how to use it all, much better than we can by committee here. Or I should say, it will probably be less bewildering. 2) Daryl's got it -- go find a blacksmith. 3) Practice, practice, practice. As a rule, blacksmiths don't seem to really accept this for some reason. Forging requires fundamental skills that need refreshed and refined. I heard once that if a musician misses one day of practice... he can tell. If he misses two days in a row of practice, his family can tell. If he skips three days in a row... anybody can tell. There is probably a similar version of this story for snipers, blackbelts, and trash collectors. If you have your own shop, you can almost always slip in there for 20 or 30 minutes of SOMETHING every day. Practice is even more mental than it is physical. This isn't directly answering your question Glen, but it is the best advice I know of for the obsessed beginner who wants to become good in a hurry.

Here is another site with pictures of someone tooling using the treadle hammer. This is the treadle hammer's real strength. http://ironroseforge.com/treadle_hammer.htm I don't care for the use of vise grips with tooling. The best vise grips for that is the fairly new design that is used for removing hex head nuts -- they even come with a sample nut in the jaws. I tried to get used to them, but find that good tongs perform better. They let you make small adjustments on the fly much more easily, and are considerably more comfortable in the hand. Tooling tongs are actually among the easiest tongs to make because they require only a small modification to the most basic tong pattern.

Do a Google search using "treadle hammer" and you will get enough hits to last until tomorrow. Here is a picture from one such hit: And one being used in Jeff Fetty's shop: As you can see, the smith is using the treadle hammer as the striker. He has a cutting tool in one hand and the hot iron in the other. This is SO much more precise and natural than using a hardie. A close up of the hand-held cutter at work between the hammer head and anvil of the treadle hammer:

I agree with saving money... up to a point. In the case of blacksmithing tools, if you are careful and buy smart, they are usually an investment. Unlike a car, most of the time you can resell your tools for as much or more than you paid for them. Not if you have to do so in a hurry, of course.

irnsrgn: Sounds about right oak: I'd take one of the hitches and try heating it to non-magnetic. Quench in water. See if file teeth will bite or just skip right off. If it hardens in water, clean it up and look for cracks in good light. If no cracks and it's hard... I'd say you got 12 hardies coming up. You can still use the one you just hardened, but make sure you heat it fairly high (bright yellow) and let the heat penetrate into the ball for awhile before you start hammering it. You did say these were black finished hitch balls? If not, be careful about burning off the finish. The typical coatings will be either zinc or chrome, neither of which is good for you.

irnsrgn: The only information I could find was that some ads for hitch balls said they were "cold forged". One article I found was for a spec for a contract that said: "like a ball hitch" and accepted mild steel. But I couldn't find steel composition of the ball itself anywhere on the net. Do you think they might be an S series steel? Almost no matter what, I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to heat one up and see what it does. It might not even harden that much with a water quench. Oak: Do you have a whole bunch of these hitch balls? If not, I really recommend you get a truck axle instead of using the hitch balls. The steel of a axle definitely hardens and tempers and the size is just about perfect for anvil hardies. Once you get an axle or two, they just started showing up everywhere, and they must be cheaper than hitch balls.

Oakwood: A bigger hammer or bigger anvil will not make a 1.5" bar move enough faster that you will really notice. Your anvil is big enough. You can increase its total mass with a denser or bigger anvil stand if you feel that is an issue. But to move that size steel, you must get it hot. If you get that bar heated thoroughly to a bright yellow heat, and hammer correctly, you can move it routinely. If you have to reforge the whole thing a lot, then you might consider smaller stock. Consider a smaller hammer. Two pounds is usually sufficient. I have a 500 pound anvil. I don't use it at all. I use my 260 pound anvil almost exclusively. But I have worked all day for a week on a $4 anvil that was missing all but a 4" square of plate of its surface. The whole back end from the hardie hole on was broken off, and about half the remainder of the steel surface was missing. As long as the anvil is about 100/3 ratio (anvil mass to hammer mass) or greater, it is probably enough. The treadle hammer is not the answer to moving metal. Its best use is control. You can also do almost anything on a good power hammer that you can do on a treadle hammer, so lots of professional smiths don't even fool with a treadle hammer. Of course, plenty of others do use them extensively, so a lot depends on your work and budget.

Dan: In your position, you might want to keep a fairly trim shop because you won't know where you're going to wind up in a few years. Moving or storing big stuff is a pain. If you keep your shop compact, you might be able to travel more easily with it. A better way to look at tools is to figure out what you want to do with iron. As you reach the limits of your current tools to do those things, carefully explore the tools that expand your capabilities. I would be very surprised if you have come close to hitting real limits yet with a forge, hammer, and anvil. Look at LOTS of iron picture books. Go find great iron. Don't settle for anything but the best for your examples for learning. Then when you see what you want to do, find those folks that know how to do that by clubs, classes, and correspondence. I'm with Hollis on the treadle hammer. It makes a million hard tasks easy... or at least routine. It is the third hand you always wish you had at the anvil. It allows you to hold hot iron with one hand and tooling in the other; it does the striking for you. It is NOT the tool to increase your ability to move iron in a hurry, but is rather a finesse tool. I'd put that ahead of a power hammer in your circumstances.