Ed Thomas

Yep, we're all shunning you and not talking to you, Thomas. Oops. I wasn't supposed to say anything. :shock: For my part, I've been making and installing windows for my shop. Finally finished today. Not much forging to write about when you're busy on the building.

In my opinion, you should always welcome a chance to practice or learn a fundamental forging skill. If you had time to ask how to do this, then it must not be a rush job. Let's assume you are using 1/4" x 1" flat bar, you want the circle to be 7" on the INSIDE diameter, and you are bending the flat part. The basic steps are: 1) Figure out the length of material you need for a 7" ring. The formula for a circle is pi * diameter (3.1416 * 7). This will be the circle to the MIDDLE of the material, so you need to add pi * 1/2 the thickness of the material (3.1416 * 0.125) which means you need an additional 22" + 0.4". If that sounds like too much trouble, just multiply your diameter by 3.2 and you will be close. So we have 7 * 3.2 = 22.4". (If the material is quite thick this shortcut won't work, though!) 2) Take a compass and draw a 7" circle on a flat piece of steel using soapstone or chalk. This is the inside diameter. 3) Heat one end of the stock and upset it. This length is great for just dropping/throwing at a piece of steel on the floor to do the upsetting. Scarf that end for a forge-weld. 4) Heat the other end and upset the same way. Scarf it upside down from the first end. 5) Bend the bar using bending forks until you have a ring. This way is often easier to me than over the horn because you can see the curve and avoid flat spots. Continue bending until the ends of the scarf overlap. 6) Forge-weld the scarfed ends over the horn of the anvil. Weld thoroughly, but don't let it get too thin. Remember that the horn will fuller the metal quite rapidly and you will need some thickness for adjusting the ring. 7) Get it roughly round, and lay it over the soapstone ring you drew. Note how much it must "grow" and work the thick part of the weld down at a very high heat until the ring is right. Work to get the ring very round to match the picture by using forks or the horn. 8 ) Take pictures and post them here. If this sounds hard, do it anyway. :mrgreen: After one or two of them, it becomes quite routine and not difficult at all. Really. One other comment: The area of the forge-weld will be VERY forged. If you don't re-forge the steel before making the ring, then the weld area will really stand out -- you'll have a milled look with hammer marks from shaping growing out of a heavily forged welded area. Make sure you do the reforging BEFORE you measure the length you need for the ring, because the reforging will probably make it longer.

I know you were asking about Australian apprentice/helper jobs but thought I'd also point out this link to forging sites in your own country of Sweden: http://katalogen.sunet.se/cat/business/corporations/crafts/forging_and_artist_blacksmiths For Australia, try this: http://jobsearch.gov.au/joboutlook/default.aspx?PageId=AscoDesc&AscoCode=9929 If that doesn't help, do a Google search using a pattern such as: Australia + farm + apprentice

Ahhhh. SO nice. Thanks for sharing those :!: :!: :!:

T-Gold: You are being paged on the Practical Machinist board. They want to know what ever became of this square hole problem. :)

pjskinner: Excellent link. Thanks. I backed up to the home page: http://www.forgingsolutions.com and read about them. I think I'll put that hammer on my wish list. :lol:

Strine: Ah... some good points. It never occurred to me that Elkdoc might be talking about a BIG mallet. That does make a difference. I just assumed a workshop-sized mallet. Maybe he'll weigh in and tell us more.

Strine: With a parting tool, you can (and do) go completely through the wood without sending the chisel around the shop. It has to be shaped and held correctly though. Have you really tried the groove and wedge thing? That sounds like the cure is worse than the disease. Maybe I'll check it out some day. I think it would be much easier to do as irnsgrn suggests... drill a few holes and screw it in place if it isn't adjustable. I still hold by my original one-piece suggestion, though If you need a square head, just cut it square and turn the handle. These are remarkably comfortable, take a lot less time to make, and are more durable.

Hollis: That's why I made the suggestion for adjustable band. I've helped band a bunch of wheels, including some fairly small ones, and a mallet is just very small to be trying to shrink fit. You have to cool the band before it burns the wood, or there goes your fit. But when you water it down to cool it, some of the water will cause the wood to swell right at the band. So it will expand slightly and when it dries, it will shrink slightly and be loose... unless you are really fast, really good, and really accurate. That's a lot of trouble for a mallet. If I did it at all, I'd just turn the mallet head slightly tapered from each end to the middle, forge the ring so it was a very snug fit, and press it on cold. irnsrgn: For a piece that small, a traveler isn't necessary. You just wrap a piece of cotton string around the mallet, take the string off and measure the string.

Elkdoc: When you turn the wood, make sure it is a piece which does not include the heart. Your best bet is a piece of split hardwood firewood. Because wood moves (swells and shrinks) so much, your best bet might be to make a ring that can be tightened with a bolt, much like a hose clamp. That way as it works loose, just give it a turn or two. Wooden mallets are sort of "consumables", in my opinion. At least the way I use them. I don't waste a lot of time on them, and never had one split at the handle first. Since you are going to be using a lathe, a better mallet is a one piece, like the woodwhacker folks use. You can chunk one of them out in few minutes. This is not a woodwhacker mallet, per se, but shows you the idea. I made this sauerkraut masher for my brother last year and already have the picture. I usually turn my functional mallets with shorter handles and slightly bigger heads. You can make them any shape that works for you. This one is maple, but whatever is in your woodpile is usually fine.

one_rod: Thanks, but this sheet is too thin and too warped for a planer, even if there were any around here big enough. Ten Hammers: Someone in the welding forum on Practical Machinist talked about a table made of 1' x 4' sections. Each section could be individually adjusted until the whole table was flat. Not too far from what you were suggesting. Hollis: If I ever buy a tabletop, I'm seriously considering 1" also. I have a smaller section of 1" and it is SOOO nice. Cory: I won't rule out a solution like that in the future because I have several pretty massive I-beams. But I really need a flat layout table more than a welding table. I don't expect to be doing enough welding on this one to be an issue. On a layout table, it is common to draw the project to scale and forge and fit the pieces right to the drawing. So I really want the whole surface. irnsgrn: Once again, I am in your debt. I will try to follow your directions for this piece and keep you posted on my progress. It will be a bit yet, as I am doing other maintenance for winter. But I think this is exactly what I need. Thank you very much!

Ideally, a layout table should be perfectly flat. So I need as close as reasonably possible. If you build an 8' rail section on your table and the table is not flat, then neither will be your rail section. It will introduce a rack or bow. If I can't get this flat, I'll probably just buy a flat 4' x 8' sheet of thicker stuff new. I wouldn't want to go any less than 1/2" and probably will go heavier.

Those hollow-formed, sheet-metal looking clips are much more common now. Those are the ones I'm talking about. It seems like they are more trouble than they are worth to use for anything. I've made (and posted pictures of) tools from the solid springs. They are a pretty good steel and make a nice tool.

Sight unseen, I agreed to pick up what was nominally a 4' x 8' sheet of 1/2" steel for a layout table from my brother. It is in fact 4' x 9' and either a very rusted 1/2" thick, or mildly rusted 7/16"... I can't tell. I was disappointed to find that it just isn't flat. It has too much warpage and crowning. I really need a larger layout table. Has anyone had any luck getting something like this truly flat? I'm considering cutting it into sections and building it back up, one foot at a time, but that seems extreme. Thanks.

Two things: 1) one_rod: I'm a little curious why you made such a sharp pein on the hammer. Do you have a specific use in mind? I think I'd wind up buggering up anything I tried to pein with that end, so I usually make my hammers more rounded at the pein end. 2) Meco3hp (or anybody): Do you know any use for these clips? I have yet to find one, which is odd considering everything else from the tracks is good for something. I'm talking about the ones on the left, not the solid stock ones.

Ralph: I'm a big believer in answering the question. All too often, someone will ask a question on how to do something and the first 20 answers will be either how dangerous it is or how pointless it is. Then the original poster will be on the defensive trying to explain that they have done their homework and need our help, not our patronizing. In this case, forging the shape of a spring is routine for a moderately skilled blacksmith. The rest is up to him. Chances are good that a new spring he buys could be an import from China. I doubt they care about my safety from spring failure 10,000 miles away any more than I would working with a heat treating shop and an engineer to make my own. No, I have not made car springs. I doubt I ever will. But I applaud anyone who intelligently pursues making their own cusom parts for anything. Tim: As I often do, I recommend you ask some questions about torsion springs on the practical machinist forum. The traffic there is enormous and you might be pleasantly surprised at the specificity you can get for answers. In addition to the usual battery of: "DON'T DO IT! TRUST THIS SORT OF THING TO THE EXPERTS!" They might be right, by the way. :)

Tim: If you take care of the heat-treating part, we'll take you through the forging part. Make sure you really do know your steel composition, and just follow the heat-treating specs for your application. As far as forging a spring upon which you will gamble your life, here are some things to watch for: 1) Keep your heat up, but not too high. In the simpler carbon steels, I'd say don't forge below a bright red, but don't heat above a bright orange. I realize that makes it tougher, but you don't want to risk burning. Usually it gets too hard to forge at lower heats anyway. 2) Watch VERY carefully to avoid cold shuts. This shouldn't be an issue on a simple torsion spring, but it needs said. 3) Avoid forging sharp corners and angles. Clean up any you have to have with a file or grinder, inspecting very carefully for cracks before you heat treat. And obviously AFTER you treat, as well. 4) Along the same lines as #3, try to make all your transitions as even and smooth as possible. This makes it more likely to successfully survive heat-treating. This is just the blacksmithing advice for general forging considerations of simple spring steel. It's up to you to shape them right and heat treat them. Insert some sort of usual disclaimer here about us being completely irresponsible... I mean NOT responsible for your screaming fiery death due to home-forged spring failure at high speeds. We think you should stay home and live in a bubble until you are 95 and safely dead.

When working with light and other wavelengths, this isn't ridiculous precision... it is just a little silly to ask blacksmiths. You can see some comments that professional machinists made about this: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015122

If your larger hammer is well-designed and well-tuned, you can forge small stuff just as easilyas the big stuff. I routinely reforge 5/16" round into 1/4" square on my 150# Beaudry. It is easier on my hammer than any 25# hammer I've used yet. Mark: It's taken three years for me to get the larger Beaudry this far. It is DEFINITELY not up for grabs! :shock: I think the rebuild cycle on a Beaudry is about 100 years. Hardy har har.

I have a running 150# Beaudry, and a 200# Beaudry which still needs some work but is in place on its foundation. Because the 150# is such a nice machine, I don't seem to be in any hurry to finish the repairs to the bigger one... which is actually twice the hammer. I don't think there is much point in having more than 2 power hammers for a small shop, and one is usually enough. If you find that you don't use your power hammer much, it is probably under-powered, performing badly, or of poor design. A good hammer increases your productivity and lets you do larger work. I think anything under 75# is probably too light for tooling work, and bigger is better. When you use one that has enough power, has nice big flat dies, is tuned well, and is designed well, it invites you to forge with it.

Steve: Your photos made me want to go back. Dang. :mrgreen:

T-Gold: Take this question over to the Practical Machinist board. They thrive on this sort of puzzle. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ I was thinking "Big Deal... use a shaper..." until you started getting all precise on me. :mrgreen:

You can usually keep the fire going by shoving a piece of wood into it while it is idle. Make sure your fire is banked well to keep the heat inside longer.

Oops. I didn't see that frogvalley had already posted the spring swage equivalent. That is also a good solution, because it is easier to be accurate.

Glen: Clips are most easily formed with a top tool. It looks like a hand-held swage only instead of round it is square inside. You make it to the dimensions of the outside of the clip, naturally. To use, place a bar on the anvil that is the size you want for the inside of the clip. You place the hot metal across that. You put the top tool on the bar, and hit it. Simple as that.