Chinobi

chemically it should be pretty close to nil unless they have included some kind of admixture to their recipe. the process i am familiar with is just a redox reaction shifting oxygen atoms from iron oxide (labratory grade rust) onto atomized aluminum, leaving you with pure iron and aluminum oxide in the slag.

yea thats what im striving towards, i have spent a lot of time behind the [needle] file in my time, as for small projects thats my #2 tool behind my jewelers saw for shaping, so id like to avoid it on large projects unless absolutely necessary :)

you have the concept backwards Paul, im not arguing that it would not be strenuous, but if it is set up well there should be minimal resistance. i do also agree that a counterweight would be very useful and permit the use of a drive system that only needs to apply force in one direction. the principle is that the bucket that is moving and the water level stays the same (to the extent that the plumbing is sized correctly to avoid too much suction and overpressure through the cycle, there will be some rise and fall in the water level that is unavoidable). if your valves or tubing into the buckets are too small it will restrict the rate at which air can enter the bucket and cause the water column within to be carried up above the outer water level when the bucket rises, adding to the force needed to operate the lever during the inhale. if the valves/tubing out of the bucket are too small the air will not be able to escape fast enough as the bucket sinks which will cause the opposite effect and will drive the water level inside the bucket down below the outer water level, adding the static water pressure difference across the bucket to the force needed to operate the lever on the exhale. so if the system is put together correctly and sufficiently sized the water level should remain pretty constant and not add very much resistance to the lever. personally i would size it to utilize 5(five) gallon buckets, or even paint cans, or whatever other vessel is readily available, the 55 gal drums are too large, requiring a taller frame and (pure conjecture following) may produce too much airflow for a small forge. i would also recommend relocating the system, and then filling it, rather than trying to shuffle around full buckets of water.

i think that probably would be the simplest way to get there, but the constraint was 'without using electricity'. however reading through again it appears that that particular tidbit is not actually in this thread, perhaps i am remembering from a different one of Azur's threads regarding bellows, or just making things up entirely :)

i found a few more pennies to toss into the well... few assumptions: 900 sf shop is conservatively a 30x30 square (for simplicities sake) from what i can glean from photos of member shop layouts it seems desirable to keep heavy equipment like power hammers near the perimeter of the available space (that makes the most sense to me, i could be totally wrong, you could reverse the entire argument and say heavies to the center as well) pad horizontal depth from that plan is 41" i would round up to 5' for some wiggle room and clearance behind the device you would presumably not place a power hammer in front of the door, or in line from the door to the center of the workspace, could be expanded to also include not blocking windows if there are any that said, it is entirely plausible that you could lay out a network of built in tubing within the center of the workspace, and leave yourself a 5' gap around the perimeter to facilitate placement of future heavy equipment over solid concrete, and not have to worry about punching holes for that monster deepened footing. working off the assumption that you want to keep the door clear, you can then route the in and out pipes through the slab to the front door and out, or to a window, or even just some place where you have it well delineated that there are pipes in conflict and then route as necessary to the heat source. similarly, you could also run a conduit with electricity and give yourself a cluster of outlets in the floor somewhere in the middle for light and medium devices like belt sanders, drill presses etc, i do like the rafter outlet layout for hand tools concept too. also, like David suggested, there is nothing requiring you to install the whole she-bang right off the bat, so if you can make it fit the budget you would be well served to plan ahead and place the tubing as a 'just in case' and fill in the mechanical's later on. my second thought was regarding the actual heat source. these systems typically require a water heater and a circulating pump to operate (unless they are in line with the rest of the plumbing and can rely on the pressure in the system to cycle it on the way to its final destination). given that this is a blacksmith shop it goes without saying that there will be fire and heat generated inside the building, granted not 100% of the time, but its a big part of the process. are there any constraints or considerations that would stop one from modifying an exhaust vent hood/chimney over the forge (ok i dont think it would work on a gas forge, but coke/coal sure) to contain some coiled copper tubing or black iron pipe to absorb the waste heat from the fire? it would be most efficient if the forge was a fixed emplacement with a dedicated chimney, but should also be applicable even for a portable unit if it can be placed underneath the hood. that tubing can then be connected to the pumped system allowing the water heater to be turned off (if the forge generates enough waste heat) or at least turned down and reduce the amount of outside energy that is required to heat the water. ok, enough rambles, good luck!

i could see a system like this functioning well, driven by a rocking arm much like a railroad pump trolley. uses smaller buckets, less water, could even be set up to work in a ditch/pond/natural water source. power by hand or by foot treadle or whatever is handy. im assuming that this approach is to eliminate the need to fabricate or source fabric or other flexible material for the sidewalls of a more traditional type of bellows? dont forget that a one way valve does not have to be complicated, it can be a flexible piece of rubber that is attached on only one edge and covers the vent during the right part of the cycle. (edit: im not sure why the image does not show a preview icon, but clicking it brings up the pic. any thoughts?)

truer words are rarely spoken! im looking forward to being able to join the ranks of people with tongs soon :) Fine work Gor, they look like you will get plenty of service out of them :)

very true, i need to address the abundance of round and curved faces in my tool inventory and continue to sharpen up my hammer control =/ do you have any radiused edges on either of those or just sharp corners all around? if sharp do you flatten progressively in several stages to mitigate forming sharp shoulders that can fold over into cold shuts?

It is quite fun and far too easy to make but despite the typical magnesium strip fuse you CAN ignite it with open flame(personal experience), so consider yourself warned.

how long a piece of wire do you work at a time and what are the dimensions of your flatter and saddle?

for what my 0.02$ are worth i second the welders lazy susan idea, i find being able to access other sides of what i am working on without needing to relocate myself or lift and turn the item itself (especially if it is not yet joined) to be very advantageous and i would assume that this can be extrapolated to projects of any size.

dont know if ill be able to hold them very well if the sanding block is fixed and the metal is oscilated, but i will add that to the list of things to check out. im planning to revisit my sanding setup anyway. i carved a shallow channel in a block of wood and set the metal in the groove to restrain it, but i hand held the sand paper instead of backing it with a block. so i will make sure i use a sanding block next time and do a better job flattening to reduce the number of recessed areas.

yea i have done quarters with some success, especially when i had some time with a proper forge and anvil at Adam's Forge. i agree that the strips are probably too narrow, but that was the principle i was trying to experiment on, if i could flatten wire out into a uniform section and go from there. i have been trying to avoid the requisite saw time necessary to prepare sheet metal. the end result for this project is to make something akin to a 16ga square wire of copper and brass that can then be twisted and formed. i had more success stacking the quarters after planishing the edges off, that lip around the circumference makes it near impossible to get them lined up and provides a very effective entry point for oxidation between the layers =/

im going to have to keep this in mind if i ever cross paths with a real anvil upgrade to my 55# Record cast iron

graff, this might be dumb but have you looked into something like a dr scholls shoe insert to help with your back? they are supposed to be pretty good and would follow you wherever you step, instead of a dedicated mat of that rubberized accelerant that doubles as padding :)

Need to bring some life back into this subforum :) Figured i would share this weeks project with you, despite it being about 60% failure, perhaps some outside insight can help. The intent was to be able to take regular round copper and brass wire, 16 gauge, uniformly flatten them without a rolling mill, and use them to create a small billet of mokume. So to start i picked up some 1/2" square steel tube(1/16" thick) and some 3/8" square bar, which by the numbers should have telescoped, but i ended up spending quite a bit of time cleaning up the interior of the tube and ultimately knocking off the corners of the bar to get them to slide freely. These were used to cobble together a sort of miniature guillotine set up that i can create dies for as needed to flatten or change the shape of wire, fuller, cut, etc. Here you can see the upper portion of the guillotine with the flat anvil die still in it, the round edged flatter/fuller to the left and the resulting flattened wires stacked up in a clamp. I cut some narrow pieces off the 1/8" steel bar i used for my original QSOkume jig and filed some grooves in the back for tie wire to sit in, you can also see the strips as flattened, 3 copper, 3 brass, ended up a little over 1/16th wide and if i had to guess somewhere between 1/32 and 1/64 thick but not very uniform. I cleaned up the strips with 220 grit and then spent the next hour trying to stack them and keep the stacked while getting the whole jig into the vice, finally had success using a collar of really thin sheet brass bent into a long U to keep them from sliding all over the place. stuck it in the vice and cranked it as hard as i could and tied it up with some steel binding wire. Took my various materials and tools outside to the patio, you can see my 'new' anvil to replace the 13.5# HF bench vice, a 55# Record Tool A55, 99% certain its cast iron. Used the fractured corners of my firebrick to create a 3 sided refractory 'forge' which worked pretty well but was starting to melt the bricks already so isnt very sustainable. i ended up stacking the tray on a metal tub so i could actually see what was happening without needing to be laying on the ground. So the result! you can see the fired billet and should be able to make out that instead of being nice horizontal stacks the layers slipped and ended up forming an overlapping doublestack, which only partially bonded and started to fold up on itself when i tried to square it up. Also a magnified shot of the end where you see the diagonal layers. im going to keep trying to make this work, i just need to be able to fabricate flat dies for the guillotine that are better than what i have been able to make so far. The ones i have now are slightly domed in the center, which was making the strips slightly concave, which made sanding them evenly impossible. i think through the sanding process the strips became convex too which is what made stacking so difficult, and ultimately caused the stack to collapse when i tried to consolidate it. How would you guys approach making a flat edge on tool dies? Any other suggestions to streamline the process? (mounting the anvil and building a proper forge are already on the list, as well as getting/making some better tongs) Thanks for taking the time to read this, it got a bit wordy... (edited to fix photo placement....twice...)

Lol, i think the presence of an additional hole AND a bick makes for a different beast entirely! :blink:

heh, i can see the future entry in the Prayers thread: "Cut hole in slab for new power hammer, hit hot water pipes for radiant heating system, in hospital for scalds to entire front section of body"! despite that though radiant floor heating is extremely comfortable, makes you want to just lay down on the floor and take a nap :) (might not be conducive to productivity, but thats another discussion :P) does the ground ever freeze where you are in oregon Graff?

frankly, if you are going to the effort to plan out exactly where you want to put a future piece of heavy equipment to the extent of making a cutout of where you want to put it i would be just as inclined to just pour the pad for it at the same time so you can really clean up the subgrade around it without potential for disturbing the already placed slab(22" is pretty deep!). you might need to keep a shipping pallet(or some other form of temporary cover) over the top of it to protect any anchor bolts that you cast in place, looks like less than 3" will stick up from your finished surface, making a very effective toe-catch.

make sure your subgrade is well prepared too and not prone to shrinkage or swell, wouldnt want your tools to start compacting the ground underneath them over time :) are you going to just place concrete or are you goign to include rebar as well?

if it was a couple of hundred miles farther south i would head up there and pick it up myself, maybe i can lean on a friend up there to camp it, ill see what the bid looks like by the end of the week...

paint it to look like a really gaudy lawn ornament, a gnome sunbathing (horn = cap), or knock off a bit of the horn to make a pig's nose, paint the whole shebang bright pink and use a coat hanger or some other wire to make a curly tail :D actually, perhaps a little lawn gnome setup to make it look like he is actually forging on the anvil could work

my 2 cents: check out riley's setup here in this thread, basically the same concept with the same recommendations. http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/29571-how-should-i-set-this-up/ you may run into some difficulty mounting sticks of track 12" or less in a 5 gal because they are so short, the more length you are able to embed in the concrete the more stable it will be. with reference to your setup in the OP you will run into some difficulty if you need to make it shorter than you originally poured the concrete because the sidewalls of your typical 5 gal have a taper to them, getting narrower from top to bottom, so the concrete will bind when you try and set it lower. if you plan to make it very short (with kids in mind, how tall are we calling kids anyway?) you might need to cut the rim down to protect knuckles. stick something solid(read: bricks, large rocks, pavers) under the end of the track to transfer the impact through the sand without cracking the sides, however if it is indeed intended for children you could probably just set it in a concrete filled paint can (if you can find one that can fit the rail) and raise/lower by shimming with bricks. as for concrete, you could do it with most bagged foundation and post mixes, make sure you are picking up enough volume for the amount that you are planning to fill. home depot has a 60lb quickcrete for 2.77$ which should do the job, leave it to set per the mix to develop strength http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Concrete-Cement-Masonry-Mortar-Cement-Concrete-Mix/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbogd/R-100318478/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UHjs9q6OiRo good luck, hope this helps without being too ramble-y

infinite apologies for necro'ing a year old thread, but is this you/your anvil up on craigslist? blue painted record 55lb with light surface rust in burbank? if it is may i inquire as to how it performed (if you ended up using it) and what has prompted you to move it on to a new home(hopefully it was superceded by an upgrade)? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/tls/3332747847.html if the listing is not from you can you tell me a little about how the anvil that you have handles? Many thanks,

you might try adding some rocks or brick to your sand backfill. get a big rock to fill up the center of the dirt layer to help carry the load down to the floor without adding as much compression directly to the sand, or if you have some old bricks or pavers handy you could stack a few of them up in the center to do the same. or omit the dirt entirely, pour a layer of concrete in the bottom, set your bricks or rocks and keep pouring concrete over that to stretch your concrete dollar even more and give yourself a larger solid mass. but then again, i am told that i over think things :) dont forget to pay attention to the curing time of the concrete and mix thoroughly with the ammout of water specified by the mix. it would be a shame to get it all put together and then end up punching a hole straight through because the concrete hadnt cured enough or the mix was off :(