mudbugone

Dan...just wondering since you just moved that hammer in.... What would you say the anvil weighs ?

That's an interesting angle.... I'm still not understanding the ratio requirements usually stated as required for a power hammer... I find it highly unlikely that any homebuilt hammer has a ratio of 20-1. Like I stated earlier the tire hammers state a minimum anvil size of 6" x 32"-34" and you just can't get 20-1 that way unless the tup is far smaller than I thought. The old hammers were usually built entirely of cast iron for mass both in the anvils (not that large actually) and the main structure. The mass had more to do with stability I think than mass under the tup. A 40# helve hammer has a fairly small anvil out of cast iron and to achive a 20-1 ratio it'd need to weigh 800# I guess some do but some sure don't. The only ones with huge anvils are the large commercial machines...the small shop size units are much more managable and may have relied on the base mountings for machine mass.

Phill...I'd be more inclined to consider a large pipe filled with re-bar (fairly cheap) even if I had to use cement for the final filler. Considering the cost of cement and that you'll need lots of re-bar anyway it may be less expensive to just assemble a 6"-8" column full of re-bar than attempting to form up a large concrete block and you'll still have to place some sort of anvil on top of that too. While re-bar is fairly cheap if you happen to pass any large job sites 3' pieces are scrap usually. I happen to have a number of 4' pieces and can get more easy enough...I'd really like to find large diameter pieces.. at least larger than the 5/8" pieces I have. While it might not be as functional as a solid block is should far exceed concrete if you place thick steel plates on the end. I can't imagine there being a huge amount of difference if you cut all the pieces flush and they all contact the top plate ...you still have a pretty solid mass under the hammer. I've read back to 2008 with discussions similar to this and there's been little change in all that time on the subject... some here are well aware of this because they were involved in those long ago discussions also. I know what I'm proposing is off the wall,but lets just see if it works. I didn't think this up and go looking for the material...the material found me and I'm just attempting to utilize what I consider a lucky break. The worst I'll be affected if this doesn't work is I'll shift the 500# slug to the rear and weld an extension piece of pipe to it and use it for a very heavy rear post on a tire hammer instead of using it as an anvil on the very same hammer....it's just that simple.

I'll be back shortly with a mix from an old blacksmithing source that might actually help you fix this ... From a long time back in an old blacksmithing archive article.. IRON CEMENT A cement for stopping clefts or fissure of iron vessels can be made of the following: Two ounces muriate of ammonia, I ounce of flowers of sulphur, and I pound of cast-iron filings or borings. Mix these well in a mortar, but keep the mortar dry. When the cement -is wanted, take one part of this and twenty parts of clean iron borings, grind- together in a mortar. Mix water to make a dough of proper consistence and apply between the cracks. This will be useful for flanges or joints of pipes and doors of steam engines. Yet another formula... Iron-Rust Cement The iron-rust cement is made of from fifty to one hundred parts of iron borings, pounded and sifted, mixed with one part of sal-ammoniac, and when it is to be applied moistened with as much water as will give it a pasty consistency. Formerly flowers of sulphur were used, and much more sal-ammoniac in making this cement, but with decided disadvantage, as the union is effected by oxidizement, consequent expansion and solidification of the iron powder, and any heterogeneous matter obstructs the effect. The best proportion of sal-ammoniac is, I believe, one per cent of the iron borings. Another composition of the same kind is made by mixing four parts of fine borings or filings of iron, two parts of potter's clay, and one part of pounded potsherds, and making them into a paste with salt and water. When this cement is allowed to concrete slowly on iron joints, it becomes very hard. ******************************************* Below formula The following link might be better suited to your particular repair (scroll down to the mixture) Brimstone=sulphur & Black lead=graphite Cement For Cast-Iron Tanks - Cement For Heated Objects Cement For Cast-Iron Tanks The following is recommended for damaged places in cast- tanks, cisterns, etc.: Five parts brimstone, 2 parts black lead, and 2 parts of cast-iron filings, previously sifted. Melt together, taking care that the brimstone does not catch . The damaged place, perfectly dry, is well heated by laying a piece of red-hot upon it, and is then stopped with the cement previously heated in a melting ladle until it becomes Read more: cementrepairingironfireironsoft http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/art/Artisan/Cement-For-Cast-Iron-Tanks-Cement-For-Heated-Objects.html#ixzz1s9Vy2WJH

LOL... Mac, I can ALWAYS do steel.... Doing it the hard way takes guts (or being a bit nuts?)

You buying? That would be fine as stated earlier if the material was available in quantity and there was a massive rush to accomplish the task at hand with no concern for the eventual cost involved. We're all aware this can be done with some plate steel... the problem is attempting to accomplish the same thing with available material in another manner than the norm. (or at least the accepted norm) Most of the above information has pretty well established this can be accomplished and may or may not result in an acceptable anvil like object of at least as good an anvil as any used in the 19th-early 20th century....most of which were cast iron with plated tops. To continually poo-poo experimentation of other directions instead of being creative in ones thinking and keeping an open mind is rather counter productive to the general advancement of ideas and thinking don't you think ? I can't say this will definatively result in an acceptable anvil ,but I'm positive no one has furnished anything that would preclude this resulting in a functional anvil.... with sufficent mass to function as required for this sort of application. Let's just say this is an experiment into what if rather than an exercise in do it my way because everyone says that's how you have to do it. I'm not attempting to be difficult just trying a different approach to solve a problem that not only myself ,but obviously others have pondered and tried to resolve. I may actually loose a couple of bucks if this doesn't work,but I doubt that will be the case (or I wouldn't attempt the experiment). For those that want to do it the way others have suggested I say "Go for it". I'd just rather try something different and it's as simple as that. I'm actually shocked there is so little creativity and curiosity being exhibited concerning something like this .... without stretching the envelope a bit sometimes the playground stays pretty small. I've been discussing this exact same subject on another shop/fabrication/machining site and the difference in ingenuity and interest is astounding. That's actually where the "Iron Cement" lead came from and I thought I'd share the knowledge here since one of the links I posted was from a very old blacksmithing linked site. Iron Cement has been around since Roman days,but I'd never heard of it before and doubt anyone here had either considering the lack of comments on it. I can tell several people are paying attention and following this with interest... Thank You & I've noticed... I hope this works out well and perhaps we'll all learn something. I've already picked up several things I never even heard of before so I feel perfectly alright with this exercise into the unknown. I hope others are enjoying the thread too. The following was Justins avatar listed above from facebook.... I thought it fit very well...

I think I'd rather fill the pipe with re-bar and pour the cavities full of the cast iron shavings and then pour the metal treatment into the pipe (with lower drainage) to solidify the shavings into "Iron Cement" .... If I use an 8" pipe filled with re-bar with 1" plates top & bottom I should have a 500# plus anvil which is a 10-1 ratio

Phill...It's doubtful anyone is going to make an anvil of those weights (even though those ratios are recommended) I thought I read that the minimum size for a Spencer tire hammer was 6" x 32" (?) that's less than 300# of soild bar stock so if the tup is 50# that's a 6-1 ratio which is far below most quoted anvil ratios... Even an 8"x8"x36" solid bar of steel only tips the scale at 653# which is only 13-1 and still below recommended weight though I doubt anyone would refuse such a block as an acceptable anvil ... Here's another chart or two for re-bar sizes & weights they included Canadian & European charts for our friends as well... http://www.advenser.com/rebar_detailing.php

I forgot I saved this image....

Weight calculator http://www.bostoncen...-calculator.htm A 3' x 6" piece of cast iron weighs 263# while a 3' x 6" piece of steel weighs 289# Both are less than I would have thought. For kicks I checked what 24" x 24" of cast iron (approximate size of the tub of granular cast iron shavings) 2800# no wonder I couldn't move it...LOL Phill I would imagine around 50#-70# would be about right.

Some have large anvils and some don't... http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/2077-japanese-power-hammers/ It's impossible to know if the hammer in that first picture also has a cast in place larger anvil base,but it appears to only have what is seen setting on concrete. I'd be concerned that any concrete base anvil would start to break down due to the repeated impact cycles it would be subjected to. The photo of the hammer above has a large steel plate under the smallish anvil that's visible. There are shots of other Japanese hammers in that thread with large solid anvils visible also. The Japanese hammers I've seen pics of that have been imported have all been raised on legs and re-fitted with large solid anvils. I doubt either concrete or lead would make a suitable anvil,but a heavily steel re-enforced base combined with a smallish top anvil on a steel cap plate might give acceptable function for bladesmithing operations,but probably not for heavy forging. It's my understanding that the Japanese hammers were designed for bladesmithing and seem to have small tups compared to other power hammers. What would be an approximate anvil height for an anvil for something similar to a Spencer tire type hammer design ? I fully intend to make an ASO using this stuff a 6-8" pipe and some re-bar.... It will either work or I'll have a very heavy paperweight. I'm thinking the anvil needs to be between 32 & 36 inches tall with additional height in the dies used. More specific measurements would be appreciated. I'm 6' tall and don't wish to stoop over or get on my knees. I used to wonder if all old blacksmiths were midgets until I viewed several very old videos showing the blacksmiths setting in swinging chairs similar to a ski lift chair.

The Blacker Hammers have some interesting adjustments...LOL... Great looking hammers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUC4CmJ-X8

But it's "VINTAGE" complete with residual sand casting stuck to the sides still...

The melting sounds interesting...need to examine that aspect. I hadn't thought of doing that. I have toyed with a foundry and was offered a Large Johnson or Johnston foundry for $400 a couple of weeks ago. I'm just swamped with projects and commitments. Which rules out the road trip... I have no doubt this will work the more I research "Iron Cement" which dates back to Roman times and is still used in Foundry castings today even though it fell out of the mainstream of use over 50 years ago. It's amazing what can be learned with an open mind and a lot of research. I had no idea if this would work or if it was just in my imagination...from what little I've learned in a couple of days maybe I'm not quite as nuts as I thought and may actually have stumbled across something that will work. The end result will probably be as functional as a chunk of cast iron maybe better by adding solid rods then filling around them. I'll continue doing some research on this and let everyone in on the findings,but it looks promising at this point.

From a long time back in an old blacksmithing archive article.. IRON CEMENT A cement for stopping clefts or fissure of iron vessels can be made of the following: Two ounces muriate of ammonia, I ounce of flowers of sulphur, and I pound of cast-iron filings or borings. Mix these well in a mortar, but keep the mortar dry. When the cement -is wanted, take one part of this and twenty parts of clean iron borings, grind- together in a mortar. Mix water to make a dough of proper consistence and apply between the cracks. This will be useful for flanges or joints of pipes and doors of steam engines. Yet another formula... Iron-Rust Cement The iron-rust cement is made of from fifty to one hundred parts of , pounded and sifted, mixed with one part of sal-ammoniac, and when it is to be applied moistened with as much as will give it a pasty consistency. Formerly flowers of sulphur were used, and much more sal-ammoniac in making this cement, but with decided disadvantage, as the union is effected by oxidizement, consequent expansion and solidification of the iron powder, and any heterogeneous matter obstructs the effect. The best of sal-ammoniac is, I believe, one per cent of the iron borings. Another of the same kind is made by mixing four parts of fine borings or filings of iron, two parts of potter's clay, and one part of pounded potsherds, and making them into a paste with salt and water. When this cement is allowed to concrete slowly on iron joints, it becomes very hard. Read more: ironboringswaterproportioncomposition http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/metal/Builder-Mechanic/Iron-Rust-Cement.html#ixzz1s1sfwtwo

LOL..Now why didn't I think of that :D If this was a make or break tool needed to make money it wouldn't make much sense fiddling with this...It isn't. I'm a notorious scrounger and always looking for another way to accomplish any task other than when making a buck is involved. I intend to build a helve and some sort of upright hammer and my Uncle wants one also. Between us I'm sure we have most everything required except the anvils.... I'm determined to whip this problem if at all possible it's just that simple. I seriously doubt this can't be accomplished,but I'll let everyone know either way. I'm not trying to build a very large hammer or trying to make a production hammer ...just something that saves some effort and allows me to use both some excess material laying around and allows me to get some use from the thousands of dollars worth of welding machines I've accumulated and don't use much. I could sell just one and buy a complete hammer ,but where's the fun in that . I want to do this I don't have to do it this way.

Dan..I keep examining the pics and number 22 shows the spring pivot mount... except I can't tell how they pivot.. the bracket holding them looks like it's solid mounted to the frame and the shaft looks like it has a bolt locking it from turning. I know they must pivot,but it's just not obvious from the pics how they are able to do so. All I can figure is there is a very tight fit between the spring clamp and the shaft mount which is so tight it is hardly visible. Could you clarify Please.. Thank You.

Now those are interesting observations.... especially the tup with lead one. I'm wondering if anyone has had issues with the Spencer tire hammer tups loaded with lead ? 15% rebound ....that's pretty low. I doubt I'll try the solid powder anvil,but I don't think filling a piece of pipe with rods and then filling the gaps with this stuff is out of the question... I won't be out much in the way of cost and it might be helpful to someone else even if it doesn't work out.... Like Edison said he discovered a thousand ways NOT to make a light bulb ! LOL If nothing else I'll have a few hundred pounds of filler for the hammer base. I'll let everyone know what happens either way it works out. If I get Lucky I'll find a solid block instead (I'd snag the one someone gave my Uncle that's 6x8 x 36" long ,but he'd know it was me)

That was a tough break on that anvil post. I too considered lead,but assumed it would only deaden the blows. I just discovered the other day that the Spencer tire hammer tups are lead filled,but I'm assuming the action of the tup would be different than the anvil or they wouldn't be building them that way... That thread was from over a year ago so this subject is still an issue. I'm surprised no one brought up this type of filler material in that discussion. I don't recall where I read a thread about lathe turning material used in this manner. I actually hadn't thought about it much and wouldn't have had I not noticed this big bucket of fine granular metal while looking for some lead weights....

I'm fairly positive I'm not the only person out in the real world trying to address this issue... I found 20' of 4" square material that could be chopped into short pieces and welded,but what a waste... I'm only trying to think outside the box in order to make an anvil with some weight to it that doesn't use material usable for other things and without breaking the bank in the process. Yes..I could just buy a piece of steel,but since this is a part time project and not an immediate must have must get done thing...I'm just exploring optional thinking on the matter. It's very simple to just buy the correct parts and fabricate whatever.....It takes little thought to assemble anything this way,but it isn't always an option for everyone. If I could find an 8" round for $128 I'd buy it.... That just isn't an option under the circumstances & I'm pretty tight with the various scrap yards in my area,but if the material isn't being scrapped I'm high & dry. These guys allow me free access to wander the yards which is not normal access. I've got 4 pieces 22" long by 9" wide by 1-1/4" thick that probably weigh 50# each.... It's doubtful I'd use them to make an anvil though unless absolutely necessary. From every old photo of hammer anvils I've ever seen the composition of the various anvils look pretty pitiful especially on the old helve type hammers and other than factory marketed machines most appear to be slabs setting on a stump and seldom of the proportions advocated on modern homebuilt constructions. I won't quote the various sources or the discussions that have advocated concrete mixed with scrap steel for density and even one discussion that advocated using metal lathe shavings. I assume this material falls into that catagory of semi-acceptable materials for building an anvil when finding a solid piece of round or square stock isn't available or at least that was the collective thinking. I've witnessed similar material that was just dumped on the ground and left to the elements ...the resulting mass became a solid lump that was impossible to break apart and required a large tractor to remove it intact... When you consider the material cost of fabricating one from thick steel plus welding (and I have the welders) and the fact that material could be used to better advantage in other ways... trying to find an alternative method of making a solid mass to beat on really makes a bit more sense. I have no idea if mixing up resin would make the mass acceptable for this use...which is why I posed the question... I and everyone else knows the first choice is a solid steel shaft,but I'm after an alternative method to reach the same point. After thinking more on this I think my idea of filling the pipe with re-bar and then filling around them with this material will furnish a more solid post structure and thick top & bottom plates should finish things off resulting in an acceptable anvil structure for a power hammer or Helve hammer. I wouldn't say it would make an anvil for everyday hand forging,but I won't say it wouldn't either.

Excellent pics Dan... What a design.. You mentioned this was built in the 80's you don't mean the 1980's ? If that's the case a manual ought to be available for it still. I've searched the internet and found no info on this particular hammer design so far. This is a very interesting helve design and Thanks for sharing. I see the eccentric operates similar to most other designs much like the Hathorn & the Hawkeye helves... I hope it works out for you & I see no reason it shouldn't. I'm really liking the simplicity of the various small helve hammers and will be looking forward to you getting this operational. How's the upright hammer functioning you were working on ?

I imagine this powder material is mostly cast iron from brake drums & discs ,but being as small as it is it's very dense. It's like coarse sand in consistancy. What about filling a 6"-8" pipe with re-bar and then using this stuff as the filler to fill all the spaces between the bars and welding steel plates top & bottom ? My biggest problem is that the scrap monkeys have picked the area clean of most anything usable and while I have a large stash of fabricating material from pipe to angle iron to I-beam .... I just didn't stockpile any solid large pieces and now finding that is a problem.. I'm expecting to "get" a lot of railroad tie plates which are 6"x9" and about 1/2" thick and intended to weld them together on edge to fabricate a 6" square post and weld angle iron corners on that to encase the plates,but there are lots of voids in those plates also and this stuff might make a good filler for that also. Thanks for the feedback..

I'm not doing very well locating a chunk of solid anything to use as an anvil,but today I ran across a fellow with a 20 gallon bucket full of very fine metal shavings from a brake lathe. This stuff is almost dust in consistancy,but probably more like granular just very small and very heavy since it's size makes it very dense. I'm wondering if there is some way to solidify this stuff in a 6"-8" pipe to "make" an acceptable anvil with a steel plate top & bottom of course ? How about mixing fiberglass resin and mixing the two and pouring that mixture into the pipe to solidify.?? More metal shavings than resin....the resin only acting as a binder not as the bulk of the filler. I remember someone stating they mixed water in something similar and let it "rust" solid,but while that might work in the short term I'd imagine it would continue to rust and eventually disappear leaving an empty column. The resin would encase and preserve the particles into a solid mass that should last indefinately. I considered using the shavings in a concrete mix instead of sand or gravel,but the cement + H2O would generate the same problem as the plain water maybe worse. What do you think ? Would the end result have any use as a power hammer anvil ? or would it produce a "dead" anvil ?

The kiln is approximately the same 16"x16" (maybe smaller) but a bit deeper. If I add hard brick to the bottom and angled brick to the corners and then line the interior and coat it ...the overall interior should be about the same as in the video just deeper. That's sorta what percipitated this line of thinking since it's about the same size. Usually you see round forges...since this was square it triggered grey matter into remembering I had that old kiln and perhaps it could finally function as something I wanted/needed. It shouldn't be too difficult to reshape the interior with additional bricks and line it with kaowool and an interior finish over that for durability. It is made up of sections (so you could add or subtract height) with a sheetmetal outer case. I would think I could cut out a side section for a "door" opening and still leave the top intact and removable in case the interior might need repairs at some point. I could make a round forge,but this is already semi-made and should only require minimal tweeking & lining to be functional with the addition of a couple of burners. Having a removable top might be helpful should I want to heat treat something like a power hammer die or anything awkward in size. At any rate I won't be out much converting this and if it doesn't work out I can always take it apart and use the bricks building something else. Once I get into this project I'll take some pictures and start a new thread on how it comes out. Thanks for the input...

It might be repairable but probably not worth fixing it and then attempting to sell it... It's been years since I looked at it very close actually. I thought I could fill the corners with bricks and then line it and coat it ...a bit of overkill on wall thickness,but would save a lot of fabricating by just re-purposing this very old kiln into something I could use. Probably save a bunch of cash on firebricks too. I'll look it over better and see if the heating elements are still intact then decide... I could use that big on/off switch on my antique AC welder anyway (refused to pay $20 something for one) LOL Been designing some sort of power hammer for the time being anyway and need to put up an addition to the shop with an area to beat & heat metal first. This is a project from scratch and I'm doing things as I can when I can as finances allow.