Timothy Miller

I like anvils and am a bit of a collector. This is a two horned Fisher "insonora" anvil about 280 lbs. This is the exact anvil featured in the book anvils in America"

I decided to put up or shut up. 1" OC ball swage for size reference.

I'm not angry I'm laughing this thread is one of the funner things I have seen in a wile. I asked you in several different ways to justify you feeling that there is a need to do this. You basically came up with nothing of substance. I tried to debate the idea on its merits and you ignored most of what I had to say. You took a personal condescending tone. You stated that you did not have the means to build it or the even the desire. You have little to no forging experience yet insist that there is a need for this tool. You cant even point out the limitations of forging equipment that this tool would address.

Red Green I got clinkers bigger than you.

No this is not personal. For me this is about the idea not you. I want to know what problems do you see with existing tooling?

Get some case hardening compound and try it. Let us see the results I am curious. The only way I know of to harden copper is to hammer it to work harden it.

“I honestly don't see any problem with the existing equipment.” I know you’ve said so before. What problems do you see? Tell Me

Ya know this whole thread has got me thinking about the problem of a universal stake holder. About how they are all different angles on the shank. This is a problem I have been thinking about as I have accumulated stakes over the years and non of them seem to fit my stake plate as well as I would like.

I honestly don't see any problem with the existing equipment. Other than stuff that is not set up right or people not having the experience of how to use it properly. People complain about tools moving around in a hardie hole well make them fit. Make a shim, upset the shank, or build up some weld on the shank. You want a universal to holder we have one its called a vise. I doubt any professional smith would want a thing like this. We more often than not are doing most of our work on power hammers and for that we have a universal tool holder. I asked before what is the problem with a traditional set up? You can see various patents in the back of the book "Anvils in America" several of them for elaborate improvements on anvils. One of them is for a anvil with dovetailed in replaceable face. In the heyday of the blacksmith in America when they were making thousands of tons of anvils a year if some body could have come up with a better and cheaper modular anvil it would have sold. Especally back then when labor was cheaper and our collective knowledge of blacksmithing was far greater. Anvils were a were an absolute necessity at the time and their design the result of thousands of years ofmetalworking knowledge. On top of that there are many types of anvils, the cutlers anvil comes to mind. It had dovetails in the face to hold tools that were in constant usage. Do you think a bunch of hobbyist some of witch have limited actual forging experience are going to in a few evenings typing away on the internet do better. If you are doing this because you think its cool or fun go for it and I will stop my criticism. But if you think this is going to fundamentally change the craft well I don't know what to say. Prove me wrong build one that is so useful that I will need to buy one to stay in business.

I think he is more content to argue on the internet than get his hands dirty actually making something.

I am going to give you an honest critique of your idea. 1. I don't see how this is going to be cheaper than an anvil. 2. I don't see what advantages it would have over existing equipment. It would be less solid than an anvil and require a certain amount of maintenance to keep in order an anvil needs none. 3. Having a anvil in pieces where the face has seems in it is a big disadvantage. 4. The anvil sections will need fairly accurate holes and dove tails to be made by some process casting milling or something else. If it were cast the patterns would involve several cored holes. if it were machined it would need to be broached. 5. Working out at the end of a horn is going to put substantial stress on the keys holding it together perhaps even bending or breaking a key. 6. Not many can cut a clean square hole in 2" thick plate. 7. It fits none of the existing tooling out there. 8. There is no real demand for such a thing. 9. Smithing is by its very nature a traditional craft. I doubt many will switch to untested anvil substitute that is more expensive than an anvil. 10. This is a silly one I know but people like the way anvils look and sound.

Very cool I want one.

This is what I mean about a a traditional set up.

As far as what I consider traditional I think I said it before anvil, leg vise, and swage block on good solid stands that can take a serious pounding. Lets say North America about 1920 with a self contained air hammer and modern welding equipment. I do not shun modern technology I have a plasma cutter Tig Mig lathe and mill. I also think modern technological has been very detrimental to the craft of blacksmith. Stamped out scrolls pretextured stock cast iron finals and the fact that wrought iron is no longer made at an affordable price. all of this stuff has dumped down and cheeped ironwork. I also don't think one has to live in poverty to do exceptional work. It takes skill determination and years of practice. There is a lot that I said that you basically ignored and I think I made a lot of valid points. I look at the old work as something to aspire to not something to stop me from developing as a craftsman. I am going to leave Hofi alone at this point but I stand by all I said.

I often need to change dies in the course of the day. We have 3 blacksmiths and one power hammer at our company. They all have their own approaches to forging. I normally use flat dies for tooling. But some of our smiths like to use drawing dies or high crown dies. For some of our production work I use dedicated dies machined to a certain angle. I also a lot of spring dies hand held tools and such a la Clifton Ralph style. So people change a lot of tooling around here.

If you had robots and computers your hammers would be worth 10 bucks like all the other hammers at Home Depot. As a professional smith you can't afford not to have a power hammer. I went form living with my parents to owning a home partially because I have a power hammer. Started with a used 50 lb star hammer I got for $1500. Now I have a Tom Clark hammer I would be lost without it. You are a good smith BTW.

Please don't take this conversation personalty. I don't think you are a fool I actually think you idea if quite creative. I just think it is a whole lot of work and its going to be expensive. In addition I don't think it will work as well as the real deal People buy New anvils because they are just that new. A 120 lb Nimba is 1200 bucks. A lot of people want new stuff its an emotional thing. Go on Ebay or Craigs list you can get a whole lot of anvil for 1200 bucks. I could cite many examples of other new anvils in the same price range. I am saying the whole deal is not that hard except for the hand tools that will take time to make and acquire. Many people just don't set up their tools right. Bolt down the vise put the anvil on a stout base. Stay out of Home Depot for your supplies and thinking when it comes to blacksmithing. I remember as a child I tried to use some old rusty files my grandfather had from his father. They were dull with no handles. I concluded that files were useless and hurt your hand. My grandfather was an insurance executive had no idea how to properly use and care for a file so he was no help. So I always wanted to use the bench grinder. Later on my first teacher showed me otherwise. I see files an an indispensable part of my tool kit. I know of with years or experience welders who have never learned how to use a file and will swear up and down they are useless. I have no problem with Hofi I honestly don't follow him that much. But some people act like he invented blacksmithing or if you don't use his hammers your arm will fall off. Superb smith? that's a tall order. Have you ever looked at 18th century iron work form France or England That work is humbling. Most people don't even really understand what they are looking at when they are confronted with the real deal smiths included. I don't claim to be all that I just say I have experience in forging metal. My question is. Have you ever worked at a forge with the full traditional set up? And if so have you found it lacking? I am also saying it is not as hard to acquire as you say.

I think they are call scorps. Why the welded handle?

I just don't see the need aside from the cost. I would hate to have to reconfigure my "universal tool holder vise anvil thingy" every time I need to do a job. The iron is hot and you got to move fast. Driving wedges every time one has to change a tool is a pain in the butt. Hell changing dies in my power hammer two or three times a day gets old fast. Plus every time you do it the wedge and dove tail wears a bit. I hardie tool you just drop in. You would loose a heat if you put in the wrong tool with the time it took to change out. I use the standard leg vise on a stout post stuck in the floor half a step from the forge I can't see any limitations with that set up honestly. Though I did like that vise bickiron combo I saw in the hammers blow last issue. I have an anvil on oak a log. I have forged over the years all kinds of hardie tools and bicks. A swage block is nice because it has all the swages depressions and holes right there you just flip it over and get to work. I also don't feel that anvils are too expensive. You can get a good used anvil for around 300 bucks if you are on the ball. A leg vise for 75 to 100 and a swage block can be any where from 150 to 400. All together less than a thousand. Your tool is probably going to cost 2 at least. I can understand makeing an anvil for the fun of it and learning a few things about steel and what not. But to me your idea kind of like putting a four barrel and headers on a state-six when you can just drop in a V8 for less. Furthermore the Hofi is just a refinement of the Czech blacksmith hammer. Hofi is a superb marketer and a good blacksmith. I have a 100 year old cooper's that feels about the same. I have a question for you. Have you ever worked in a forge that had a full selection of top and bottom tools fullers swages set hammers flatter punches drifts etc... A good heavy anvil fastened to a solid base a solid leg vise that is 100% with spacers and jaw caps. A good swage block on a stand that holds it so it won't move when you are wailing on it with a sledge. A selection bicks and stakes every thing one step from the forge? Not many smiths have the whole deal I dont feel limited by that setup, I feel empowered. I think a lot of beginners if they have good tools don't utilize them to full effect. Then they say this tool doesn't work so they reinvent the wheel when the solution was right there in front of them. Have you ever seen Peter Ross work? He uses very simple tooling traditional tooling. He is one of the least limited craftsmen I know.

Just a question. Why not use a power hammer you use a powered belt sander? You do great work by the way.

I would be interested in acquiring one of those presses. Let me know if you still have them.

It works and it is actually cleaner than soft coal. It doesn't coke at all. It is almost pure carbon. The fire control is more difficult. It needs more blast but it gets hot as hell. I was told for years that it was useless and never bothered with it. Until a friend of mine died and his brother gave me all of his coal. Some of it was anthracite so I tried it. It works surprisingly well but not all hard coal is the same. when I run out I will buy some more and see how that goes. I would like to hear from someone with more experience on this topic. I have not tried forge welding with it yet.

First I am not saying that every thing in the world of blacksmithing is perfect. What I am trying to say that learning how the traditional tools work then go from there. You will find that it is hard to improve upon what has allready been done. hell its even hard to match what has been done in the past. It is my opinion that most "new" in blacksmithing are slight refinements of older tools. More often than not they are cheeped out versions of older tools. Dont you think if there were a better, cheaper way industry would have figured it out 50 to 100 years ago and exploited it to make a profit? The only thing that has improved is the steel used. Tooling needs to be robust direct and simple. The hardie hole is about as simple as you can get or a vise can be used to hold tools as well. vises work well and are cheep and plentiful. I have never used a dollie in forge work dollies are hand held tools used by auto body workers to smooth out sheet metal work. I think you are referring to bottom tools and bicks? I work on a #326 hay Budden I bought a few years ago for 500 bucks well worth the money. I feel that a 500 lib anvil is bigger than I would ever need. I am not working with three strikes wielding 20 lb sledges I never see that happening in a modern shop. If i were teaching a child to smith I would give them a hammer that was tempered softer than the anvil that they were working on so it would be impossible to damage it. Have you priced a plate of steel 2" thick? The steel to make what you are suggesting is probably more expensive than a serviceable anvil. Then throw on the top of that the cost of flame cutting square holes. You are probably talking minim $150 per side plus what ever else whet into making it Secondly I am not rich. I am a working smith who will do any job that walks in the door I think I can make money on. I have done industrial work, railings, fencing, furniture, hardware, historical restorations, tools and repair work. I deal with the hard realities of being a small business owner and working craftsmen. on a daily basis I deal with The limitations of time money, government regulation, insurances and employees. In the third world they use what ever is at hand a $5 Chinese hammer is expensive to them. A smith in a rich country who is unwilling to shell out a few hundred bucks to get a good used anvil is not thinking clearly about his or her craft even is that person is dirt poor.

I have worked on London pattern anvils for the past 15 years wile they have some minor limitations, but you can make just about any kind of hardie tool to over come those problems. Your design looks quite Involved I doubt that this would be cheep to manufacture. I think investing your time money in a power hammer would add to you capabilities much more than a very complicated anvil. Remember Machining is not blacksmithing welding is not blacksmithing only getting a peice of metal hot and working it is blacksmithing. In my opinion the hand and the mind are the most powerful tools in this craft. If one focuses on the fundamentals the dividends will be much greater. Things such as such as hammer control understanding tooling and how metal really moves under a hammer or in a die. This stuff is complicated and takes years to master. As a beginner I found these things very hard. In an effort to side step these problems I would try to reinvent the wheel spending often spending many wasted hours on something that ultimately didn't work. Understand and master the fundamentals they are a result of thousands of lifetimes of experience.

The classic use of pick up tongs is to pick up drifts punches and other small tools that fall onto the floor wile forging with a striker. For example lets say you are drifting a hole and drive the drift all the way threw it falls onto the floor. You are holding a hand hammer, tongs and or forging your hands are full. Your striker puts down his hammer and picks up the pick up tongs and gets drift. Wile you go get the next piece to be forged or take another heat, your strike cools off the drift for you. They have it at the ready sitting on the anvil for you to pick up. They are also picking up cut offs that fall on the floor so they don't melt your boot when you step on it or start a fire. They are not really for holding a forging because you cant get a good grip on a workpiece. though they may be of for some upsetting duties under the power hammer.