youngdylan

The tool does it all, slit half way down, turnover the slit the other half, then when tool is still in place drift form one side, turn over and redrift; kinda the same as doing it by hand. I'm never sure of the terminology. Slitting, punching, drifting , whatever ..... it's all done with the same tool and usually in one heat. The widest/thickest point of the tool is the size of the required slot (3" x 3/8" in this case) but remember it tapers away in both directions for the wide and narrow faces With punching "strip" the hard way (edge on) like this ALIGNMENT is everything

hey there are some foreigners use this place you know .... it's a workshop ..... or studio when it's the right thing to say to attract customers (clients?)

Pictures as promised, should be self explanatory. The tool is sorta blunt slitting chisel, slot punch and drift all in one The "rig" is a sliding bolster and stripper plate. The "punch" is machined forged from H13. It fits into the turned parts which screw onto the end of a hydraulic ram. It's got an M12 thread which the "cap" is screwed onto with a grade 12.9 allen bolt. This allows it to be pulled out the slot. Note the H13 could be a bit to hard to drill/tap after forging (turning with carbide tooling is sorta ok). Because of this I Idrill and tap the thread and rough turn the end before forging it. The ram is only 15T but it's got an 8hp power pack so it shifts. This is important to stop the tooling getting too hot and the work piece cooling too rapidly. One good bit of advice I picked up of Alan Evans was to thin down the punch/drift behind where it is at the required size. Look carefully at the photos, you should see what I mean. It s double taper in both the thin section and the thick section. This minimises the area in contact with the hot and so minimises heat transfer. I find puching big chunky sections easier than small ones because they keep the heat much longer. I can usually punch/drift this sorta size in one heat. You'd be at it for a mighty long time with sledges!

In a few recent threads there's been a bit talked about the new style Kinyon using a leaf spring and an underslung cylinder. I thought I'd start a new thread to see if anyone's seen one/ used one and if so have they any comments or opinions. Me? I've only seen pictures but it kinda appeals to me for a number of reasons, some of which are 1. Not too tall 2. Cylinder pulls instead of pushes = more balanced up/down forces on the tup = better control 3. It doesn't use an off centre guide system Thoughts?

I'll try to remember to take some pictures tomorrow.

I'm liking what I see ... a lot! Had me going there for a minute, thought your workshop was pretty well equiped if you had a waterjet cutter in it

Ciladog/Doc Just digested your posts; thanks for the info, it now makes sense and appeals to me. I'd like to get the opinion of two master tinkerers as per yourselfs on another hammer option I'm thinking of. If I ever get time to do it, I'd also like to incorporate some of your control sytems features in it. I was planning on one day revamping my conventional Kinyon. I really don't like the off centre guide; I had trouble with it breaking off in early days. The cylinder is too small at 63mm. One option is to use a 80mm cylinder but I'm not sure about the unbalanced forces. Currently it uses a regulator and progressive bypass for the down air supply. It works but theres another option I'm thinking about. My KA75ish uses 2 off 50mm cylinders; the bigger area makes a diffrence and the pull instead of pushing means more balanced forces/better control. I was going to use a similar guide system to the phoenix and although I'm a real fan of "upside down cylinders" my limited engineering sensibilities don't like the off centre forces. One option is to use 2 cylinders as per my KA75ish but "beside" the tup .... see diagram. It also avopids the height problem with normal Kinyons and my my KA75ish has proved quite robust. That said, it does have problem when it tops out on the stroke (as per Bulls ???? ) all the shock absorbing comes from the mounting springs; I could incorporate a top buffer as per yours, though this looses the low height advantage. My conventional Kinyon will snap rods at the tup junction. A previous thread has discussed this and any misalignments don't help. The KA75 spring/spring mount on the cyliders would help since the cylinder is not rigidly connected. There's also plenty of space for a spring/spring tup connection as per Grant Sarver's suggestion in the thread. http://www.iforgeiro...tup-connection/ Kinda think a combination of your control system, the Bull/Phoenix and this configuration (if it's viable) could result in low height, fully featured, controllable and powerful hammer. What more could anyone want?

yeah but there's BIGGER overheads to go with it

Ciladog/ Doc Gonna sit down, take it in, and watch the video, meantime I'd just say thanks for posting the info

Lovely looking stake South. I'm with you on the tooling bit. My favourite parts of a job are the beginning where you sort out the design/ logistics/ source materials do your research and TOOL UP. Other is at the end when you stand back, look at it and take photos. The bit in the middle where you do "dum der dumm der dummity" or "smack smack tippety tap tweak" maybe hundreds and hundreds of times can get a bit boring.

Ear defenders? I was self taught and had never seen another smith in action whilst I was learning. I just found myself bouncing the hammer on the anvil automatically without knowing why I was doing it. I since found out it's to keep the rhythm going as you adjust the work and it feels real strange if I don't do. Also if I don't do it, I'm nowhere as effective at the anvil. As Joe Public says "strike when the irons hot"; keeping the rhythm going means your'e getting more blow in whilst you can. I think Brian Brazeal makes the point somewhere that it takes more energy to stop a hammer moving than to keep it going I guess all you nay sayers should watch this video. About halfway in look at the magic he works on the anvil. Pure poetry in motion + my inner geek just loves the sound he makes when forging ... including the "dribbling" http://www.youtube.c...h?v=YLhwJch4hSY

... forgot to say, if you just need single hard blows and aren't bother about lifting speed then 2 80mmm cylinders will apply a total lifting force of about 700kg at 7 bar pressure..... you could use a pretty big tup !!!! (as long as you'd got a good sized anvil) .... With single blows a slow lift up is ok. When striking you'll have downward aceleartion due to gravity + force of 600kg due to downward air pressure. The longer the stroke, the more the tup acelerates and the more enegry it picks up that can be transferrred to the blow. Speed is imporatant because the energy is proportional to the square of the speed. My gut reaction (based on my smaller scale version) is with around, say 500kg of anvil mass, it's not really worth going above say 100kg tup. This weight with 80 x 250mm cylinders should work a treat. You will be flowing a lot of air and will need a pretty big valve with at least 1/2 BSP ports, maybe even 3/4 BSP if they are readily available/not too expensive. More height would be good if you're using tall tooling. Whereabouts in England are you? I'm in Manchester and you're welcome to visit my workshop too see my set up.

I Built a KA style hammer not that long a go. Initially it was a tap on the treadle per blow but I rigged it up witha pilot circuit so it would auto cycle. The tup is somewhere around the 50 kg mark and its's got about 450kg of anvil and base. I use 2 x 50mm cylinders with 250mm stroke. Works fine but would have liked to use 320mm cylinders but they would have pushed the height up too much or I'd have had to bore out longer guides I bored the ports out on the cylinders from 1/4 BSP to 3/8 BSP and used the shortest fattest hose I could. Especially important on the exhaust side . I now have this just an autocycle hammer but have rigged my other Kinyon up so it will autocycle or give very repeatable single blows using a pneumatic pulse generator. More info in this thread http://www.iforgeiro...ka75ish-hammer/

Actually I do think I have a touch of clautrophobia because I really don't like closing doors .... in all seriousness! Yeah workshop size is LIMITING me big style. Being a one man band means I'm spending way to much time on non productive work. Need to employ someone but can't cos of space, or lack of it. You're right as wel, l I do spend a lot of times moving work around. Beginning to get to the stage where the rent of a bigger workshop would be cheaper than the time spent moving stuff around. Mulling over a bigger shop but it's gonna be a major b***ache moving all my gear ...... there again I can get a bigger hammer ....and bigger press ...and bigger steelworker .... and bigger mill ....................

Yeah a bigger cylinder definitely makes sense to me but when I built the hammer I used a 63mm cylinder. I'm planning on revamping the Kinyon someday and will proably go up to an 80mm cylinder Meantime, there is a way however to get the control of balanced tup forces and the more oomph of an unregulated down pressure. I've rigged up a bypass circuit to the regulator. At small treadle openings the bypass is shut but this progressively opens as the treadle opens. At full openings the regulator is bypassed and the top side of the piston gets the maximum possible force. There's a slight bit more plumbing and I'm never a fan of added complexity ..... but it works a treat. I posted some info a while back in this thread http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/16031-improvement-to-kinyon-hammer-control/

I could, but there again I've also got 2 English style flyresses. The balls on these are pretty much well set up to do that job

.... ah but this home brewed beastie has an unguarded tup (for now) and I don't won't to get clouted in the head by it on the upstroke as I lean in to look at the work. That colour is called "signalisation yellow" on the spray can. I guess it's probably one of the most noticable colours.

Good stuff Danger, Guess a truck with a front mounted jib beam would have come in handy

Danger just wondered what you use for the black finish. Does the "gold" = forged bronze, gold leaf or guilders paste. Kinda expect it's not paint

You and your bl***y screwpress

Ciladog/Doc Thanks for the info, you guys know what you're taliking about. Is it a terminology thing or a different control system with the Bull/Phoenix? I've built two kinyons with a spring/pilot big spool valve and a single pilot switch. In a nutshell the hammer relies on "overshoot" for it's stroke. Ie as it passes the pilot, the air is switched to make it want to turnaround but its momentum keeps it going until "the air wins the fight between air pressure and momentum" and it turns around. From the little I know this is kinda like a steam hammer (not self contained) In essence the stoke of mine is constant but I lift the pilot for higher work. I have also rigged up a circuit so it acts as a treadle giving one shot full cylinder length blows but thats a seperate subject. This uses a pneumatic monostable valve, ie something that give a single fixed length pilot pulse of air when triggered. You seem to adjust the pilot height but also use a "control rod". Whats this then? ... despite waffling for England I don't always take word in. Do your hammers use a pilot/pilot big spool valve with upper and lower pilots? Maybe you could post a back of the envelope diagram schematics. ...... pictures, thousand words and all that .... any sketch gratefully received PS one good thing I like about the original Kinyon is it's simplicity. In essence the only moving parts are the tup/cylinder rod and the shuttles in the pilot/big valves .... less to go wrong. How robust / resiliant to shock is your control sytstem? PPS One of the things I like about the Bull/ Phoenix is the cylinder pulling instead of pushing. It gives more equal up/down forces on the tup when it's weight is taken into account ..... = better control. One of my Kinyons is KA75ish with cylinders like this, other is conventional but uses a regulator to even out forces = better control/ less power. I use a regulator bypass circuit that is progressively switched in as the treadle is pressed. PPPS One thing I don't like about the bull/phoenis is the off centre forces from the cylinder. Your hammer has something going on at the top of the pillar ?????

My bible is "Blacksmith's Manual Illustrated" by J.W. Lillico. It's more a series of line drawings from the 30s. It's stacked with meat but it doesn't spell it out for you, you've got to read between the lines. Starts relatively simple eg forging tongs, hammers etc then gets into larger more complicated industrial open die forgings but the tooling techniques can easily be scaled up/down. Plenty of "step by step but pay attention" drawings on how to forge big (100s of kg) specialised parts for steam engines but its all good, all good A must for anyone running a hammer. You can down load it here for free http://p1.countrysid...ions/manual.asp but it's availlble from amazon for around £15. Guess it's nice to have a hard copy to thumb through at meal brakes http://www.amazon.co...68906008&sr=8-3 PS since posting this I've just had a quick flick through and I'd forgot just how useful it is if you don't need everything spelt out for you. It tends towards flat die work with swages sets etc etc rather dies. There's a lot of ingenious ideas that clearly have only come from years of experience learnt by doing. We don't know how spoilt we are these days with so much info at the click of finger and cheap power hammers and other tooling everywhere. I've nothing but Total respect for the old guys. It does make me wonder when you see old videos/ photo's of the conditions people used to work in years ago. A lot of them were maimed/ burn't out/ ground into the dust way too early and yet these days its seems every man (or women .... Beth) and his/her dog/female dog wants to dress up and play at being Ye Olde BlackSmythe.

WHY NOT?

Don't really get many nasties like that over here or on the continent. Full face does a good job of stopping any we do get though, also stops stones etc at speed.

wonderful work + informative thread Rory looking forward to seeing the next project