primtechsmith Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 What are some tips for those trying different methods of joinery like collaring, and riveting? Peyton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Peyton: Learning joinery in iron is no different than learning it in woodworking. You study examples, both live and in books. You watch demonstrators and you go to classes. Not only is there an enormous arsenal of options in classic joinery, but modern artesans have been exploiting new architecture and innovative methods. Go to the National Cathedral in Washington DC and spend a day just studying how the ironwork is put together. Buy books that illustrate joinery techniques you would like to master. Find a master and ask them to show you something SPECIFIC. Don't just ask: "Show me how to do joinery". That is too vague. It also takes a lot of effort and practice on your part, so don't waste his time if you haven't done your homework. Instead, ask things such as: "How do I make a square tenon?" "How do I properly fit that tenon?" "When is it appropriate to use one?" If you are really serious, there are one-week classes every year at almost every blacksmithing school in the country. Pick one near you and fork out the money. If you have a particular question involving joinery, ask away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primtechsmith Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Being vague was exactly the point here. Open ended questions with a broad topic usually facilitate more traffic and responses on many different levels and aspects of the subject at hand. We have among us here on this forum many smiths who have a wealth of knowledge. This forum is an interactive book of sorts with many resources, authors, and editors. I am merely attempting to create a thread to expand the knowledge of us all...I am just trying to do my part to further this forum. Peyton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GobblerForge Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I like using joinery. Mortice and tennon are ornimental as well very strong. Tips would be to use good shoulders on the tennon and extend the tennon one and a half times it's thickness. This gives good material for riveting it back. Same goes for rivets. Collars work well when applied hot so as to shrink tight. They work well for covering welds too. Tips would be to cut the collar total circumference + one and a half the thichness of the collar material. Chamfer both ends of the collar so they overlap. This gives a little fudge factor that a butt end doesn't. Any thing else? Gobbler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J W Bennett Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 PrimeTech, Your questions and the insight and knowledge they have drawn out of the members here is appreciated by all. We can all learn new or diffrent ways to accomplish a goal. If nothing else a person may be reminded of something forgotten in the shuffle. Please continue with your line of threads. JWB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Peyton: Whole books are (and rightfully should be) written about this topic. I have no idea where to start in answering such a question. As I heard someone say: "Learn the trade, not the tricks". I don't mean that in any way to be disparaging, but rather to point out that joinery goes right to the heart of blacksmithing. It is everything. The more I learn about the mechanical joining of iron, and the ornamentation of the joining, the better my forging becomes. We are blacksmiths largely because of our love of joinery itself! Joinery allows us to make manageable discrete parts, and join them in mechanically sound, esthetically pleasing ways. It makes no sense to forge an entire stair railing from one piece, though I suppose it could be done. Instead, we draw the entire railing, and then study it to see what individual components are needed to make it become the drawing. Then we make choices about how to combine those pieces elegantly. That is the joinery. Almost all of the arguments about the validity of welding (forge or arc) versus mechanical joining are disagreements about the importance of the point of union... the joint... to the whole. The more importance you place on that point, the more likely you are to search for ways to make it beautiful and harmonious with the rest of the forging. Many of us find the mechanical joins to be opportunities for beauty of the highest order in forging. It is our love of making ornamental functional joins that gets us in trouble with those who ascribe little or no importance to the esthetic value of that spot. All elaborate, beautiful, complex ironwork is made up of lots of simple (or at least "simpler") pieces... which are joined in such a way as to contribute to its beauty and its wholeness. That's why I don't quite know what to do with your question. Its so darn big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strine Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Wow! So elegantly put...a masterly insight into the craft. Thankyou Ed for the inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strine Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Only recently I was asked about my intensions as to why I was studying the Governmant House gates from a few inches away when 'normal' people look at them from afar, take a photo and nick off. When you study a gate from that close it sure doesn't appear that you're looking at the gate but rather what's beyond. In the end the security guard, who appeared from his hidey hole, took a keen interest in the finer points of his charge and we had a great old yarn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 So how many of you have used a deep well socket as a monkey tool to chean up a tennon shoulder? Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Strine: Thanks for appreciating the perspective. I remember the first time I saw the ironwork in the Washington National Cathedral. Very briefly I forgot I was in a church and thought I was in heaven. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strine Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Haven't used a deep well socket but a mate worked in the police department armoury and at the time of the great firearm hand-in, had plenty of 1/4 inch monkey tools of any length you preferred as long as they weren't the original length :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Ed, that was about as clear a definition of blacksmithing over fabrication as I have heard yet, and I will promote those same points now that you have given me the words. Excellent. I have read several basic books but none seem to speak to joinery as much as I would like to know. Anybody have a recommendation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Mills: Joinery is addressed in many "how-to" books. The best one I know for going directly to the issue of joinery for modern application is Peter Parkinson's book: "The Artist Blacksmith". For clarity, I haven't seen its equal yet. However, the CoSIRA books have an exceptional amount of information on joinery and design. They are free for downloading here:http://www.countryside.gov.uk/Newenterprise/economies/craftpublications.asp Every time I tried to home in on a particular section as a recommendation for joinery instruction, I got distracted again by the wealth of stuff in these. So I gave up. Just download them all and enjoy the entire set. Along with studying and practicing basic join forging, find real examples and look at the infinite variations of these. Good picture books of gates, railings, etc., are wonderful inspirations. That way you'll have a better idea how the really good artisans exploit joinery and it will make the elementary study more meaningful. There are many awesome picture books out there. The best might be the ones by Otto Schmirler. Most of these have a good bit of "how-to" information as well, and they go right to the top of spectacular forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Yes I have seen the Schmirler book and will get a copy some day. I about forgot the cosira books, will review them and will see if the Parkinson book can be had thru ILL. I finally got my hands on Southwest Iron Work by Turley that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I have had trouble with tenon joints breaking off on andirons. I observed good forging practice and left generous radii everywhere but the piece would often still break. However, it may have had something to do with my technique. I fitted the pieces, heated with a torch and hammered away. As the joint cooled, it would often stress to the point that the tenon pulled away from the parent stock (broke right at the shoulder). I now heat the whole end in the forge just to get it preheated, then use the torch to heat the tenon. The loose part is dropped over the top and the rivet head formed with the hand hammer. I find it best to use two heats so the contraction does not overstress the shoulder from trying to finish too quickly. Has anyone else had the problem? I was fastening 3/4 square to 3/4 square at a 90 degree orientation - square tenon thru a punched hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Mills: There are actually quite a few Schmirler books. Each one is usually dedicated to some theme, and one volume deals with fundamentals, including joinery, as I recall. Sorry I'm so vague, but a walk through the virtual bookstores should get you close. I couldn't find my copy that I THINK is the one I'm trying to recommmend. I loan books out pretty often, so it might be a goner now. I got several of these at the last ABANA conference from Norm Larson because I could page through them and see what I was buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Hollis: I didn't know that was possible so I think you are just making it up. Did they always sheer right at the base of the tenon? That seems suspicious to me since if the tenon is of uniform strength, it should sheer randomly, if at all. With a radius on the bottom of the tenon, it seems even less likely to break there unless it is secretly fatigued already. I have never had happen to me what you described. That is not to say I haven't sheered off tenons, but it didn't happen like that. How big did you make the tenon? Another thing that makes me hesitate to blame your technique for forging the tenon over is that I do rivets like that all the time. And they never fail like that. I've seen your fine work often enough that I realize you know what you are doing better'n most of us. Still, I'd look again for possible sources of fatigue or embrittlement. You got me curious enough I might try to replicate your problem when I get a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Ed, I've had it happen three or four times. In one case, I forged the tenon - 1/2" square from 3/4" square and punched the hole in the upright, then fastened the two pieces. The tenon broke right at the shoulder. To myself, I whispered, "No problem, I'll just shorten it a bit", so I cleaned it up and did another - that one broke too. By this time, I was uttering epithets. They did not break early in the process but as I was finishing with "faceting" blows on the head. At the time, I theorized this may have been caused from a bit of bending to and fro but the fastened piece was well seated. What seemed to help was not localizing the heat too much on the end of the tenon. In other words, the entire end needs to be hot down into the shoulder - not yellow but at least a dull red. I think my problem was that the shank was too cold and eventually just work hardened to the point it broke off. Didn't matter that I had a radius in the root - it still was enough movement to break. Just my observations but I'll listen to other explanations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Thanks Ed I did not realize there were several. I never seem to have any $ for books and magazines that I tuck recommendations in the 'that would be nice' heading in my brain and move along. The one example I have seen was a very well illustrated, informative book. HW, That is an interesting problem. My first thought is can it be blamed on the steel? After I learned to forge weld, I started getting a lot of failures. Turned out all my failures came from a stick of 1/4". I could weld every thing else, so far. Have you already dismissed this possibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Hollis: As I suspected, you already thought of everything obvious and then some. With 1/2" tenons, I am really surprised. They should be plenty big and sturdy. Maybe Mills is on to something with the steel itself being at fault. But you said it happened on several occasions so I assumed you were working with different batchs of steel. I am quite puzzled. If it were the steel's fault, your work-around would have fixed that also. At the very minimum, thanks for the info. I know it would have blown me away if it happens to me and I didn't have your warning here already. Mills: I know what you mean about the cash for books. And the prices keep going up and up. I know they are well worth it, but there are several dozen right now I'd like to buy that are just out of the question for awhile. It isn't like you can go to the county library and borrow them either. However, our guild has a library and between occasional purchases and donations, we're getting better all the time. Maybe you can suggest one you want to your local club for a new addition. That way several people get the benefit of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Another possibility: if you are heating the tennon to red and leaving the shaft "cold" you might get mass quenching and if using A36 there can be enough carbon in it to get brittle when quenched. Heating back into the main stock will help prevent this. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Ed, Actually, all the breakage came from the same lot of steel. I bought a bundle of 3/4" and all the work was out of the same batch so there may be some validity to that explanation...H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I took a class at the Appalachian craft center where Jay Burnham Kidwell was teaching, he showed me the socket monkey tool trick, very nice. As for collaring, many times the equations just do not work out the way I want, so what I've done, and will continue to do, is take different thicknesses of leather belt material, and match them to the thickness of material I'm using, and measure with the leather belts, cutting pieces to fit, then measuring the pieces that fit just right, and transferring that number to my metal, works most of the time, and more than the equations seem to. Give it a shot and let me know if it works for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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