cheftjcook Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 They say the only stupid question is the one not asked!! So here goes. I am new blacksmithing and am confused about forge welding. Or confused about how to due it with any confidence. I try to practice different skills, Taking my time to learn them correctly and be fairly adept at tapering or making a fluid scroll or any bit I can gleen from others of skill willing to share...some stuff looks pretty good from distance, if you squint alittle and its dark in the garage....But enough of my metal mishaps ... I read some one say to try and due a forge weld every time you start and you will eventually get the hang of it....Well.... going at this rate i could be older and grayer than I am now and still not get it right. I have actualy gotten one realy good forge weld , many thanks for the helping hands from the folks at peters valley on a coal forge during a class. But feel I must be a dope, To here others speak of it almost common place and my One Good Weld, sits in a special place in the garage like a "buddist shrine". My wife still asks me why I have a hand made unused Iron beer bottle opener hanging on the back wall of the garage?! big grin I know I must work at it and be persistant. And Am sure most of you gifted Smiths I read of here have been putting in hard time to be accomplished. So I am asking quit humbly for advice...to at least get me pointed in the right direction. Also tired of friends offering to loan me a "mig" and be done!!! Grin The Setting: I Have now in my little corner of the garage a Whisper Daddy (3 burner) gas forge,with front door and side ports (neighbors do not like the smoke of a coal forge and I can roll this out doors for working) Even filled the Tank. I have steel to hit, an Anvil to hit on, a hammer to hit with and have metal shavings and "20 mule team" to flux (for all the good it has done me) Again any help would be great! Thanks in advance & God Bless cheftjcook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Go check out the thread in Shop Hints on the same subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 The Setting: I Have now in my little corner of the garage a Whisper Daddy (3 burner) gas forge,with front door and side ports (neighbors do not like the smoke of a coal forge and I can roll this out doors for working) Even filled the Tank. I have steel to hit, an Anvil to hit on, a hammer to hit with and have metal shavings and "20 mule team" to flux (for all the good it has done me) Again any help would be great! Thanks in advance & God Bless cheftjcook My own opinion is get rid of the metal shavings. It was a common additive during the wrought iron years. The wrought iron already had a lot of inclusions in it so some extra metal crud was not going to do much to hurt it. BUt today you do not need it. I believe it will make for a dirty weld seem. Just use 20 Mule. My rule for welding is this bring the metal with flux to about the same color a pat of butter is on a piece of toast under a broiler. Just as the butter starts to melt and get the swirly liquid movement on the surfacce. If you metal and flux look about like that remove form fire and place on anvil and immedieatly hit with hammer. Not a hugh whopping hit but a nice FIRM tap. Mebbe a few taps then you will need to brush off crud reflux reheat re-weld to shape the joint. Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 There is another thread on welding flux that you way want to visit. Someone else will have to help with using a gasser and welding as I use coal for fuel. And we need several long winded explainations of forge welding so we can develop this into a blueprint on the subject. In a coal forge, you need to first clean the metal. No use shooting your self in the foot before you start to walk. How clean, well how much do you want to weld to succeed? Then most folks will tell you to clean the clinker out of the fire and get a fairly good size fire going, and place the metal into the neutral area of the fire, about 1/2 way up the fireball or a little more. You want the heat but not the extra oxygen, so let the fire consume the oxygen and put the metal into the heat zone of the fire where there is no free oxygen. Let it get up to high red or orange and remove the metal, wire bursh any scale off and apply a bit of flux. This should be done quickly and placed back into the fire while at low orange or high red in color. Bring the whole piece of metal up to yellow and watch for it to throw a spark or two. The second spark is the key. The metal should look like butter that has been sitting in the sun, still in a stick form, but just about to slump, with the outside looking like it coated with liquid. It is also about the color of a lemon only intense. While everything is getting up to heat, do the forge welding dance, practice getting from the forge to the anvil, grabbing the hammer and being ready to start. Do it again, do it one more time and then move the anvil and place it NEXT to the forge. Practive the dance again and again till there is no extra steps and no lost effort. You want ALL the metal at the same temperature both the outside AND the inside. When you see the second spark you are at the welding heat, grab the metal, over to the anvil, grab the hammer and BUMP the two pieces of metal. You just want to mix the liquid on the surface of the metal. Whacking the metal real good with a hammer is spectacular when you squirt the hot liquid all over the shop, but it leaves little liquid to mix and actually form the weld. Just bump it. Billy Marritt uses a wooden hammer handle - no hammer head, just the handle - that was soaking in the slack tub water to forge welding billets. Just grabs the wet wooden handle and bumps the billet much like you would bump the heel of your hand on a desk top to make the weld. After the first bump or two, then apply the hammer, and back into the fire before it cools below high orange/yellow heat. Back to welding temp and do it again. Look for any dark likes in the weld which means the weld did not take in that area. A faggot weld is the easiest make, just fold a piece of metal back onto itself like when making the end for a poker. From there move on to two pieces of metal. 1/2" square is a good size to play with as it holds heat well. There is also the "test" of welding heat of touching the two pieces of metal at high yellow temp together in the fire. IF they stick to each other, your in the welding temperature zone. But the real key to all this is to practice with MILD STEEL until you get it right. After that you can work with other steels and other methods. Just keep the first "good" weld so you can remember where you started.S-002 Making you First Forge Weld will explain a lot of the mystry of forge welding.BP0093 Forge Welding - Ralph Douglas is a blueprint on forge weldingBP0071 Poker 01 - Beacher Alan (Possum) is the blueprint on the faggot weld in making a poker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 Gentlemen, I read the posts and threads they are very detailed and informative. I am Amazed at the info tucked away at this great site. Thanks for the tip about the metal shavings, I will do the next without the shavings just the borax. I have a question about the heat. Everyone and the forums refer to the need for yellow almost white hot metal, which makes pefect sense. Call me crazy but It seems like a coal fire gets hotter than the gas forge gets could that be true. or maybe I'm just impatient and don't allow the metal to heat properly. (most likely me looking for an excuse! grin) Thanks Again Cheftjcook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authentic Iron Works Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 If you want to weld, keep the oxygen out of the equation. Modern welding such as mig and arc incorporate shielding gas that keeps the o2 out. Thats the idea about 20 mule team borax, it keeps o2 from bonding with the iron. But, It needs to be applied before scale develops on your piece. Try this experiment, take a piece of half inch square stock and fold it over upon itself at a scaling heat but leave a gap. As it cools, keep hitting the piece until you knock off all the slag between the surfaces to be mated. Use a wire brush to help out with this process if you like. After the majority of scale is knocked off and when its cooling to chery red, hammer it together to a tight fit. This tight fit will help you keep the 02 out when you take it to the next step. Next step is to reheat to welding temperature, which is sparking, tap together on your anvil, keep the kids out of the shop to keep the molten iron out of their eyeballs. Personally I hate flux and have better results forge welding when I focus on keeping the 02 out of the equation. Sometimes I will grind clean surfaces and wire together or tac weld pieces together to set up a forge weld. Important thing is a tight mating surface. Round stock is easy to weld together because even though the initial contact sufaces may be covered in inron oxide, the scale sloghs off and the radius's fold together enabling you to weld molten surfaces. Every time I use 20 mule team borax I xxxx my piece up and create more clinker to stop of my forge. But anywho, every smith does things different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I had a friend build an aspirated gas forge and brought it to a MOB meeting to show it off. While talking to us he *melted* a billet in it---pool of liquid steel on the floor of the forge How much hotter do you need? Coal forges do not get hotter than gas forges can; but most any coal forge will burn up steel and you need a gas forge designed to get hot to melt it---not all gas forges will weld, some will weld with tweaking and some weld so much better than a coal forge that it's amazing to use them. You can't say gas forges don't get hot enough---rather you can say *this* design/implementation doesn't get hot enough" Note most professional pattern welders use propane forges these days. James Hrisoulas welds with an aspirated forge and is several thousand feet above seal level to boot! Coal forges do have a nice restricted hot spot in them while gas forges tent to heat everything in sight.. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I too am not a skilled smithy....so should probly not share but then some times our mistakes can be lessons for others.I started out with coal so could reach critical temptures quikly and just had to learn to read the fire.Cause the burnt look isn't so cool.Burnt the ol' pinky a plenty in my attempts. But I think one of the things my instructors who patantly stood by trying to get threw my thick noggin' was the soft touch of the hammer for the actual weld.Useing a lighter than normal hammer and appling a gentle touch helped finally after many frustrating trys.Cleanliness proper applacation of the flux at red to white heat so it melted in and not over helped.I saw several demonstations given by skilled craftsmen(women) that seemed to have it's own little touch yet the same results.Confidence is what I saw in those demo's that held a key.Speed applied by a well thought out plan....and of coarse standing in the proper direction honoring the correct smithy gods....and tossing a little of that flux over the shoulder had some effects I'm sure. Practiced still helps in trying to achive better.I found the fold weld to be easest for me and so did it plenty to build up my confidence.I'm working on improveing the heat value of my gas forge....even though I have welded horse shoes in a little single burner whisper baby in times past.I didn't know I wasn't supose to .Daaaaa.... ignorance it works wonders at times. I'm sure glad I found I could log in here after trying sense it's conception...more ignorance on my part that never panned out.But this place is such a cool and enjoyable source of imformation.....I thank all you knowlagable and up and comeing smiths for shareing such treasures of the kingdom of smithing. Thanks for your patance with us wanna be's, lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I had a friend build an aspirated gas forge and brought it to a MOB meeting to show it off. While talking to us he *melted* a billet in it---pool of liquid steel on the floor of the forge How much hotter do you need? Coal forges do not get hotter than gas forges can; but most any coal forge will burn up steel and you need a gas forge designed to get hot to melt it---not all gas forges will weld, some will weld with tweaking and some weld so much better than a coal forge that it's amazing to use them. You can't say gas forges don't get hot enough---rather you can say *this* design/implementation doesn't get hot enough" Note most professional pattern welders use propane forges these days. James Hrisoulas welds with an aspirated forge and is several thousand feet above seal level to boot! Coal forges do have a nice restricted hot spot in them while gas forges tent to heat everything in sight.. Thomas Boy I for one would like to learn how to build one of those better asperated forges...Thomas.Would you have any where abouts or suggestions for ideas on building one.I've build a venturia forge with limited success so far. If I'm kicking a dead horse here...I understand.....it's a subject I'm sure has been worked over pretty hard.I've never believed that saying there isn't a stupid question and made a few teachers agree with me on that one over the years. lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Ask Patrick Nowack what he did over at anvilfire---may take him a bit to answer; or you could search on his earlier postings and send him e-mail from it. IIRC this forge was built in a square metal box and lined on all 5 walls with soft firebrick so lots of insulation value. he didn't have a lot of fancy tools so the burners were probably pretty simple. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 Thomas Powers: I had a friend build an aspirated gas forge and brought it to a MOB meeting to show it off. While talking to us he *melted* a billet in it---pool of liquid steel on the floor of the forge. How much hotter do you need? Coal forges do not get hotter than gas forges can; but most any coal forge will burn up steel and you need a gas forge designed to get hot to melt it---not all gas forges will weld, some will weld with tweaking and some weld so much better than a coal forge that it's amazing to use them. You can't say gas forges don't get hot enough---rather you can say *this* design/implementation doesn't get hot enough" **As an Admitted Newbie and certainly low confidence in my own knowledge of smithing I needed to ask about the heat, still knowing full well it was me. Thanks for for the info and the corrected /proper phrasing of the situation. It is appreciated and I will certinly keep trying. I would like to know more about the afore mentioned aspirated gas forge. While the ability to turn billet steel into a pool of liquid steel sounds neat and fun to watch! And even though I am sure ( as a newbie) I would only get myself into vast amounts of trouble and make a terrible mess. I would like to know more. The word aspirated leads me to believe or a least question, there being not just a simple jet or jets of flame but also a varient forced gas/air at work. Is the gas forced in, at a modified or greater pressure or volume thru different jetting. ie.. as an improved venturi of a carburetor vs the high psi jetting of fuel injection or like the blower assist forcing in volumes air to facilitate a better fuel burn. Please let me know more, Like with most of life, this could be real fun or real dangerous Again thanks for the valuable time and Information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Aspirated just means that the jet of gas entrains the combustion air on it's own---no pumps, fans, powered etc---it's the *SIMPLEST* way to go. IIRC he was just using burners off of Ron Reils gas forge website. His insulation was topnotch though. Ask for Patrick over at Anvilfire and see what he remembers. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Thank you Thomas, I am paying attention and appreciate your time and smarts. As I am gleening some great info from not only yourself but the others who have posted here and the other threads on the same subject. You and others mentioned the insulation & O2... can I just add extra to the forge with out any ill effects. Trying to keep the heat higher and O2 to a minimum I think I am partially or fully going to cover the side ports of the forge. Again thanks for your imput and patience as I stumble along learning a great craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henerythe8th Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Check out Ron Reils page(s) regarding aspirated propane forges. I think that they are now being managed by ABANA, due to some health prob's that Ron is facing. There is a lot of good info there. I recently built a small propane forge with a single burner, but I need to decrease the volume or increase the number of burners to be able to get to forge heat. I believe (don't quote me) that Ron's guideline is something like 1 "normal size" burner for every 300 cubic inches of space inside the forge, that would be the open space. He also recommends using plenty of insulation ie. kaowool and the use of ITC 100 which is a refractory coating product that you can put on your kaowool. The propane forge that I am working on is made from a discarded propane bottle that I picked up from the scrapyard. I hesitate in even mentioning that because of the inherent DANGER in cutting one up/open. This one had the valve removed for a loooong time and was filled with water for quite a long time, too. I then left it full and cut it open with the plasma torch, though it still made me nervous... There were no flames, or poofs, but DO NOT try to cut open containers which previously held flammables without thoroughly weighing your options! Anyway, this propane cylinder was the next bigger one up from the standard BBQ sized bottle. It has one TRex hybrid burner installed. See http://www.hybridburners.com/ Currently has a single layer of "normal" fire brick in the bottom with another layer of "half brick" on top of that, as well as a single layer of kaowool. I was getting ready to coat with ITC 100, but I think that I am going to reduce the volume of the forge and better the insulation with another layer of kawool, first. Once I get it "tuned in" a bit better, I'll send some photos. Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authentic Iron Works Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 My opinion is that you just can't say gas forges get hotter than coal forges. The reason that you can melt steel in some gas forges is that they are restricting the amount of o2 entering into the combustion chamber. These gas burners that can melt steel without burning the piece are operating in a reducing atmosphere. This means that there is more fuel in the burn than atmospheric oxygen can bond with. This means you can keep adding heat to your piece without burning it. So if it's not going to burn, its going to melt. This also equates to explosive conditions if you let to much fuel to build up in the chamber. The reason coal forges burn up your piece is because too much oxygen is getting in. I think you need one heaping pile of coal on your forge to be able to heat you piece to melting conditions without burning. This is harder to achieve with coal which is chunks of material that are not as easily bondable as compared to gas which is a combination of elements that are ready to combine with o2. This is also probably why pure iron reaches white heat in coal burners easily, because there is no carbon to burn. So I think we can achieve white heat with steel if the darn oxygen dosn't combine with o2. It's all elementary...and oh yeah, it's also combustion science which is impemented in cogeneration and coal power plants that provide electricity to the average homeowner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Henry, would love to see the pictures when you get them. thanks for the heads up about ron's pages. Other kind folks of this site have mentioned ITC 100 also, Where do you get it and how long does it last before having to replace the kaowool that has been treated with it? Thanks for the info Henry Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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