cwm1949 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 As I told the forum a while ago, my grandfather, who died in 1950, build a forge. As I was born in 1949, I did not get a chance to learn how the forge worked. In fact no one used it after his death, until this year when I decided to see if it is usable. I have had only 4 fires and read some about black smithing. So net net I know almost nothing. My current problem is that I can get good heats on the ends of a piece of metal but when I try to heat the middle of a 3 foot piece I never seem to get much heat. My theory is that the forge's fire pot is to deep. The diameter of my fire pot at grade is approx 24 inches and the depth is approx 5 inches to the bottom, where the air enters the fire. The center of my fire always seems to be "below grade" so that I can only put the end of my metal into the hot part of the heat. So my question is my fire pot to deep? If not how do I get the hot part of the fire higher? Do I just build a bigger fire. I have ttried that and it just seems to decrease the air flow with the result of getting less heat. If it is to deep how can I correct that problem? Thanks in advance The attached pictures are just to give you a context to answer this question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
element Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you could raise the clicker braker assembly an inch or 2 i think that would correct the problem. You might need to add clay to raise the bottom of the firepot even to the tuyere top. My 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 You can try raising the bottom of the fire pot and inch or two. For an experiment you can drill some holes (use an old drill bit) in a brick and lay it over the air grate. Whittle the brick to fit the bottom of the fire pot first so you don't break it after drilling the holes. If the pot narrows towards the bottom you can cut a piece of steel to fit at the desired level and drill some holes in it for a temp air grate. If one of those solve the problem you can rebuild or adapt the fire pot in a more permanent manner. How's it feel working your Grandfather's forge? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 From what I can see from your photographs, your firepot looks fine. You should be able to raise the neutral spot in the fire to being level with the forge's table by adding coal until the center of the fire is level with the forge table. The height of the pile of coal and the amount of air will raise and lower the carbon and oxygen neutral spot of the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keppler Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 More blast should raise the heat in the fire pot right? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
element Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Is it possible adding coal will add to exessive fuel consumption? More blast surely would, but maybe he didnt have enough in the first place? hmm.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 From what I can see the fire pot is made by digging in the ashes which are quite fine. They are not falling into the coal and blocking the airflow are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you lay a iron rod across the forge so that it is horizontal across the top of the firepot, that is usually about the center of your forge fire, perhaps a bit above the firepot, depends. The coal below the iron is removing the oxygen from the fire so that you have an oxygen neutral space where your iron is. The forge is not a barbecue, you are not roasting iron on top of a fire, and it is not a fondue pot, as you are not sticking the iron down into the pot to heat it. The iron is horizontal across the center of the fire. There should be about as much coal above the iron as below the bar you are heating. The rate and amount of coal burned is controlled by the amount of air and proper use of a water can. Sprinkle water outside of the firepot. Never pour water on a firepot, especially an iron firepot as that would crack the firepot! Using this method, a five gallon bucket of coal can last you all day. As the local club has banned the use of water in their forges, to save the firepots, I grieve the loss of the opportunity of club members to learn proper management of a coal fire. Let us all have a moment of silence for the loss. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm1949 Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 From what I can see from your photographs, your firepot looks fine. You should be able to raise the neutral spot in the fire to being level with the forge's table by adding coal until the center of the fire is level with the forge table. The height of the pile of coal and the amount of air will raise and lower the carbon and oxygen neutral spot of the fire. Thanks for all your comments. I think your comment may help me know what I am doing wrong. When I start the fire (with success) I have used a piece of coal to bridge thefire pot so the fre was farther above the clinker breaker than if the coal came all the eway down to it.. The pieces was fairly flat and had room around the edge where it joined the fire pot to allow air flow. All worked fairly well until that coal caught "bridge" fire, then the fire moved lower in the fire pot and I could only work ends of my metal. You say "adding coal until the center ...." I have been adding coal to the top of the fire, should I be adding it to the bottom some how? Again thanks for all our patience as I learn how to run a fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Bill, Have you been to a demo or club meeting and watched someone knowledgeable manage a coal fire? If not, I highly recommend it. I would also highly recommend having a similar person come to your place and run your forge for a while. They might be able to pick up on some of the quirks of your particular forge and explain to you what it needs and/or what they're doing to make it work. Your grandfather invested a significant amount of time into building that forge. He "may" not have known what he was doing, or how to get his forge going, but somehow I doubt it. That's a beautiful looking forge in my opinion and I'd be inclined to do a fair amount of experimenting before I started taking it apart or making significant changes. It's a little hard to tell from the pictures, but without being there and trying it, I think I could get along fine with your forge. Several things have been suggested and all are probably valid suggestions. My first suggestion to you is to comletely clean the firepot out. Let us see what it looks like with nothing in it. Next suggestion would be to examine the tuyere carefully and make sure it's getting all the air (Ie. make sure there's no leaks in the airline). Looks to me like you got a triangular clinker breaker, that's the kind I like best. My firepot is not nearly as wide as yours, but actually deeper. The happy part of this is that it's easier to get a neutral flame than in a shallow fire. You can prevent the fire from getting too big with the judicious use of water and a sprinkler can. Another thing that can happen is that as the fire settles there's not much pore space for the blast air to rise up through. Take your poker, insert along the surface of the fire pot and give the fire a "lift" once in a while to help the air blast get through. Avoid breaking your coke into too small pieces. Rather than starting the fire with a big piece of coal directly over the tuyere, save a good sized chunk of coke from the previous forging session and use that. Build your fire with coke, push the green cole in from the side 'til it cokes up, then bring it into the active part of your fire. Let us know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm1949 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 Bill, Have you been to a demo or club meeting and watched someone knowledgeable manage a coal fire? If not, I highly recommend it. I would also highly recommend having a similar person come to your place and run your forge for a while. Thanks for you comment. Although I never "knew" my grandfather, I have grown up around barns he built and observed end irons, wrought iron mail box supports with a landscape profile. So your comment that it looks like he built a good forge conforms to what i observed of his barns etc. No I have not had an opportunity to see someone, who actually knows what a forge is, use it. My wife and I are considering going to a school in western NC for late Aug. (ok she is not taking Blacksmithing class but is will to go along). I will follow your suggestion and clean the the fire pit and send more accurate pictures. Again thanks to everyone for your comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in NY Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 You say "adding coal until the center ...." I have been adding coal to the top of the fire, should I be adding it to the bottom some how? above snipped I'm real new at this and have very little empirical knowledge, but I do have some. I am a good fire starter, I heat with wood and have been camping since I was a small boy, often for the whole summer. Imagine my chagrin, after reading all sorts of books and then finally think I'm ready to start, and I can't get a fire going! Back to square one, read all those fire building chapters that I skipped. Get a fire going in the bottom of your pot. Surround your fire with wet coal. I mean wet. Put some coal in a bucket and pour water on it. As your fire gets going keep the outside banked with wet coal, keep it wet with a sprinkler can of your choice. I pat this down with my shovel to keep the fire from poking through. When you need more fuel for your fire push it in from the sides then add more green coal to keep the coke forming and to keep it banked. The coke will fill up you pot and you will be mounding up the center as high as it is deep. In your case 5 inches. The wet banked coal will contain your fire and direct the heat and keep on producing coke. After this is going, keep it going. It's easier to keep it in shape than to get it in shape. As I said I'm real new at this, but I have been focusing on fire and I like playing with fire. Any comments will surely be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The coal should not be sitting against the clinker-breaker. Sounds like you need something like this. BLACKSMITH COAL FORGE TUYERE NEW N/R 6" - eBay (item 250382337587 end time Mar-08-09 19:54:33 PDT) Or you could weld up a small grill to sit against the bottom of the firepot, or you could take an appropriately sized piece of steel and cut a slit in it and place that against the bottom of the firepot. Once your coal fire is built, coal is then only added from the sides, not the top or bottom. .... I think your comment may help me know what I am doing wrong. When I start the fire (with success) I have used a piece of coal to bridge thefire pot so the fre was farther above the clinker breaker than if the coal came all the eway down to it.. The pieces was fairly flat and had room around the edge where it joined the fire pot to allow air flow. All worked fairly well until that coal caught "bridge" fire, then the fire moved lower in the fire pot and I could only work ends of my metal. ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Unicorn has it right, add more coal to bring the 'ball' higher up from the tuyre. If you are worried about coal consumption, cut two sections of railway iron to help crop in the sides of the fire. Place them sideways such that the flat bottom will be just off the vertical angle, this will narrow the amount of coal on the sides, yet allow the fire to be deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 You don't need a grill over the clinker breaker, that would sort of defeat it's purpose wouldn't it? I don't have one and have never seen one set up with a grill over the clinker breaker. I do agree that "coal" shouldn't be sitting against the clinker breaker though. My point is that it should be coke by the time it's made it to the center of the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm1949 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 Bill, ... It's a little hard to tell from the pictures, ... Here are pictures of Grandfathers forge I tried again today and got a fire but not much heat. How big should my pieces of coal/charcoal be? I have air flow as demonstrated by picture with a plastic bag flapping in the breeze generated by the hand crank blower. Note I do have heat coming from the shaft that supports clinker breaker. I also have some sparks in the area below the forge. Does anyone know of videos of a "good" blacksmith fire being started? Also I have signed up for a week class in Aug. so I will be able to see how it is done. Thanks for all comments on the forge and fire management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 From the pictures, I don't see any problems. If sparks coming from the tuyre then make sure that your air pipe and tuyre are clean. Personally I prefer a Champion 400 blower and I would fill in the holes between the stones in the firepot, but those things should not be causing any problems. Sometimes it takes a while to get the forge up to a good heat after starting the fire, are you sure that you have given it enough time? If none of the suggestions have worked for you, then perhaps you need to have someone come over and look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in NY Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I was going to ask if you were using those big hunks of coal in the earlier pics. They should be quite a bit smaller. How small? Bueller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm1949 Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Today I was able to get a good fire that heated my metal in what seemed to me to be a quick time. I think the change was that I used larger pieces of coal. I believe I over thought the "charcoal" part of what I had read. This week I decided to just build a fire as if I was trying to start a fire in a coal stove. Ok I was careful to keep a clear air path thru the center of the coal when starting the fire. But I used bigger pieces and it worked. So now I know the forge is fully functional. Next I need to learn how to make something other than free form trivits. Let the fun continue. Again thank for you comments and help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Bill: I have the best luck when my coal is 3/4"-. Any fines get wetted down good and packed around the centeral cone of 3/4" coal. I start with a strip of cardboard about 1 1/2-2" wide 18-24" long and coiled tight. I place it over the ari grate and let it slip open a little so there is a little gap between layers. Then I pile coal around it and mound it up in a hill over it. I leave a crater in the center of the mound exposing the cardboard coil. I pack wet fines around the outside of the mound. I light one or two wooden matches and drop them down into the gap in the coil giving it very gentle air, just enough to keep the matches burning. Once the cardboard catches I increase the air a bit till it's going well, then I cover it with 3/4" coal slowly being careful to maintain open flames at all times. It'll keep burning alright if the flames go out on the top of the pile but the smoke will be MAJOR. That's how I light my coal and it takes less time to do than describe. I also like to coke up a bucket's worth at the start of the day so I don't have to deal with smoke all day long. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Bill, I see the source of your issues... You're missing the door on your ash dump. 75% of your air blast is going out the bottom of your forge. Unless it's an optical illusion, in the 5th picture of your last post with pix. At the bottom of the tuyere, there's a small cylindrical piece on the bottom of the pipe. That would be for a pivot bolt that holds a piece of flat steel over the bottom of the tube such that it can be pivoted out of the way once in a while to dump the ashes that fall through the clinker breaker. You just need to cut a piece of 1/4" steel in a egg'ish shape, drill a hole through the end for an appropriate bolt then bolt it to the tuyere somewhat loosely. Mine has another extension opposite the pivot hole where I mounted a little bit of rod so I don't have to get down on my hands and knees to dump it. I'll send you a pic of mine if you need it. Let me know. I'm kind of stoked about that little observation 'cause I think you should be getting a nice fire out of that forge. I would also probably clean the fire pot out real good ( like rinsed with water, or blown with air), and then patch the irregularities betweent he bricks with some sort of refractory cement or clay just to smooth up the sides of the firepot which I think will make managing your fire just a bit easier. Let us know how it turns out OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm1949 Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Bill, I see the source of your issues... You're missing the door on your ash dump. 75% of your air blast is going out the bottom of your forge. Its not an optical illusion, and you have a sharp eye. The original door is missing. But I averted the loss of air with a lot less finess than you suggest. I have a a steel plate and cobbled together rig that I use to wedge between it and the floor to hold the plate against bottom of the down pipe. Your solution is better and I plan to follow your suggestion Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Is that a Champion number 40 blower you have? I have a number 40 and it works great. If you fix that ash dump lid then you should be able to bring your heat up high. I'm working on a forge that will run off of my number 40 and it has a fire pot depth of 3 1/2 inches +-. I tend to like shallow pots! Blow easy at first. When I was using my number 40 blower I'd blow too hard and little red pieces of coal would land on my hands and dig wells! Don't wear sandles! Nice forge; Hammer away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Good advice Dave! If flaming coal embers are flying out of your forge and burning your hands you're cranking too hard. The voice of experience. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm1949 Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Is that a Champion number 40 blower you have? It says 89 on the side. I hand another fire today and all went well. Second fire in row that worked as exoected. NOw I am able to pricie on the hot iron. Thanks for everyones suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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