Phil Patrick Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The blades of Don Fogg - a cut above Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Don is a nice guy, But where the writers got the idea to define damascus as high and low carbon is just more myth from people that do not know any better. AS anyone that ever really studied it knows the carbon migration evens this hi/lo thing to homogenize the steels carbon content. Edited February 20, 2009 by steve sells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Patrick Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 Here is another interesting article as well.The fire of creation: Blacksmithing is alive and well Steve, don't get too bent out of shape over the article. I don't believe it was written as a how to, definitive definition of the manufacture, this is the only way to do it, don't listen to anyone else cause we are the gods of damascus steel. I like to think that at least that even a modern fabrication publication can still take an interest in things out of the norm. Ciao 4 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) Steve, I wrote those articles. As any good writer knows, you must gage the level of experience, interest and understanding of your intended audience and write appropriately. As Phil correctly observed, these articles were written for a general metalworking publication, not an encyclopedia of bladesmithing. I chose not to dwell on the technical details of knifemaking since this was an article about Don Fogg, not about knifemaking. I'm sure "The Fabricator" would be glad to publish an article about pattern-welded steel if you feel qualified to write one. Edited February 28, 2009 by Quenchcrack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I forgot to mention that Don had complete editorial control over that article and reviewed it prior to publication. And what did Don do for a living prior to becoming a bladesmith? He was a technical writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
element Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I found the story interesting and even inspiring. Maybe he doesnt know the chemistry like a chemist but he sure can craft a blade:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Don Fogg is not just an artist but he is largely self-educated and formidably so. What he doesn't know about steel metallurgy, a bladesmith doesn't need to know. A very sharp guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Quench: Oh come on guys....the man is a living legend.. while anyone in blacksmithing has to have a basic understanding of metals and metallurgy, even if it is on a working level of knowledge...Mr Fogg has taken this way beyond that...WAY WAY BEYOND... Now a lot of folks, simply because he is self taught (as I am) would discount working knowledge and experience. If it was up to me I'd give him a PhD from the School of Hard Knocks. OK.... Granted I eventually got my sheepskin, and that's only cause I was really, really interested in what is going on INSIDE the steels while they are being worked. The "store bought" education only confirmed what I suspected was happening...I am dead sure Mr Fogg could do the same as I did and cause all sorts of problems for the instructors who probably never worked anything hotter than a cup of coffee. Ya know..a while back the folks at "The Fabricator" as well as the folks from ASM asked me to write a pattern welding article...maybe I should look them up... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I never said that Dan Fogg didn't know, I said the statement of hi/low carbon content of layers in a pattern welded blade was in error. I simply disagree about spreading false information, no matter the reason. No matter the degree or person writing it, either my statement is factual or not. Maybe I am taking this too hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 JPH, no argument about Don Fogg. A truely unique man. As for The Fabricator, well don't do it unless you think you can do four or five more. They have no shame about coming back to ask for more articles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Steve, do you know how many times I read the mis-use of a metallurgical term on this and other sites? Like "Austenizing" and "Retained Martensite" and "Hardenability instead of Hardness". I gave up trying to correct these errors because when you point them out, people turn on you. They accuse you of being a know it all. The glossary in that article was "borrowed" from a site on Japanese blades. The credit is at the bottom of the glossary panel. Unfortunately, the site is no longer functional. We can either perform a "Whack-a-Mole" routine trying to correct these errors , or we can just chill out and accept the fact that a lot of folks just don't really care enough to learn every detail. Misinformation on the web will flourish with or without our intervention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hey All: Ok on the hard/soft layer thing..this was a theory for centuries...and only recently, in the last 20 years or so answered by the truth as far as carbon migration goes.. CAN one get both hard and soft layers in a Laminate? YES only IF you add a carbon barrier material like pure Ni (or something else that doesn't "absorb" carbon). Now I was as "guilty" (or mislead) as everyone else was, we simply didn't know better.....It wasn't until folks like Daryl Mier, Howard Clark, myself and a few others really started to look "into this stuff" that we found we were flat out WRONG about that. I even put it in print about the hard/soft layers in my first book...We didn't know that stuff back in the 1980's when we first started to really get into it... By the time the welding is done, and without the afore mentioned barrier, if you are using 1010 or wrought iron and 1095, all you are doing is making really expensive 1050.....the carbon has prety much difussed/migrated until it is more or less homogenous in the bar. All in all it was a decent article..no need to pick it apart..at least I don't think there is... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minaraimono Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 This has got me wondering. Im probably a little confused. I make a very simple "damascus" out of wrought iron and Hitachi White #2 (that might read something like 1095 is US terms). Now I dont fold it all that much; Im happy with about 64 layers. But after a blade from this steel is forged and HTed, I can sand blast the piece with a blasting grit that it harder than iron, but not as hard as the steel and the layers are revealed. I was assuming this was because of variations in carbon content. I'm not saying that carbon doesnt migrate. Im sure it does to various extents. But fully homogenized after 5 welds? Even with a billet that has 300+ layers, it seems that people can reveal the layers with acid etching etc. If thats not a function of the acid eating away more of the softer (i.e. lower carbon) layers, what exactly is going on in that process? Im not a serious pattern welder so I have never researched it in detail. But I should like to understand this part just a bit more clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 This has got me wondering. Im probably a little confused. I make a very simple "damascus" out of wrought iron and Hitachi White #2 (that might read something like 1095 is US terms). Now I dont fold it all that much; Im happy with about 64 layers. But after a blade from this steel is forged and HTed, I can sand blast the piece with a blasting grit that it harder than iron, but not as hard as the steel and the layers are revealed. I was assuming this was because of variations in carbon content. I'm not saying that carbon doesnt migrate. Im sure it does to various extents. But fully homogenized after 5 welds? Even with a billet that has 300+ layers, it seems that people can reveal the layers with acid etching etc. If thats not a function of the acid eating away more of the softer (i.e. lower carbon) layers, what exactly is going on in that process? Im not a serious pattern welder so I have never researched it in detail. But I should like to understand this part just a bit more clearly. +1 great question :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I took that question to its own thread, http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f14/proof-carbon-migration-10297/ To state it simply, it is not just carbon that efects etching, there are other elements involved also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I took that question to its own thread, http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f14/proof-carbon-migration-10297/ thanks checked it out looks good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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